Cole Heilborn (00:00)
Why do so many brands struggle to entertain their audience? Because

Andy Pearson (00:05)
that is not what a brand's primary function is. There's all these things that again have been in like the traditional media playbook and marketing playbook that are just easy way to light all your money on fire.

Cole Heilborn (00:16)
And I'm curious if this is like an interchangeable concept point of view or character or how you think about brand in the world.

Andy Pearson (00:22)
A brand exists in sort of a like here's a PDF of our brand book and here's our tone of voice and we talk like this and we don't talk like this. Like as people, we love watching characters. I mean, pick any movie that you love or TV show. Like the characters sometimes they don't make sense or sometimes they're like they surprise you or they're they do weird things and you like them because they're they're a little messy. The idea of a brand is usually to to box things in. I think like a character is

Much more of like of an expansive idea.

Cole Heilborn (00:53)
What's principle though that can be applied at any scale from what you guys figured out how to do?

Andy Pearson (00:59)
It's humor. I mean people share what's funny and what they love. There is no faster way to connect with someone than through a joke. It's not a considered tool in the toolkit for a lot of people. And it's partly why we're able to do all the the stuff that we're able to do is cause nothing ever stays the same over here. Yeah, exactly. Like I said, we're making this up, man. ⁓

Cole Heilborn (01:15)
And the fact that you haven't written anything down.

On this podcast, we go behind the scenes with industry experts as they break down what it takes to produce creative work that works. If you're seeking insights from some of the sharpest minds in the industry, this is your guidebook to producing creative work that actually delivers. Andy, welcome to the podcast. Good to see ya.

Andy Pearson (01:39)
Thank you. Thank you for having me here.

Cole Heilborn (01:41)
I appreciate you taking the time. The first question I wanted to ask you of many is why do so many brands struggle to entertain their audience?

Andy Pearson (01:51)
Because that is not what a brand's primary function is. It is to sell things to people that they may or may not need. And so usually the people behind the brand, their intention is to make people part with their money first and foremost. And you know, the the straightest line that some people can draw to that is, you know, try to list off some things that they think would be convincing to someone on why they might want to buy their product or service.

And then let that do the work. And ⁓ and while obviously that does work in some instances in some industries and in certain contexts, the action is the the intention is for the company to you know ultimately reap the benefit and not the person on the other side. And so I think ⁓ yeah, people are often behind brands, I think often are not and it's in I always say it's like it's an extractive practice. Marketing is inherently instractive.

extractive, right? We're trying to ⁓ trying to get something out of people rather than inherently give them something in that interaction.

Cole Heilborn (02:58)
Feels like maybe you have a different take on what is perhaps a more the right way to approach that.

Andy Pearson (03:03)
⁓ I mean, I have a different perspective. And again, like, you know, I've I've been doing this liquid death thing for ⁓ almost exactly five years now. And ⁓ I think we've seen what has worked for us. You know, I I won't say that it's the right thing for everybody in every situation, but man, as a human being and a consumer, quote unquote, who gets ⁓ shit thrown at them all day by other marketers,

I certainly wish that people would consider like me ⁓ when they're making their work. And so, yeah, I mean, you know, when what we're really setting out to do with stuff at Liquid Death, or just in general, I think, is to bring something to people that is genuinely entertaining. And entertaining ⁓ can certainly mean a lot of things, but by starting with

something that someone will find genuinely entertaining and then decide how that can function as an ad versus the the inverse is off is essentially the way ⁓ you know it's always kind of traditionally been approached. It's like, hey, what ad can we make? What what do we need to say in the ad? ⁓ what does the takeaway mean to be? And then like, can we work a joke in there? And it's it's

You know, it's sort of the like medicine with a spoonful of sugar sort of method, right? It's like it's like, and now here's a little joke so you don't hate us for interrupting you. ⁓ but if we can actually start from a place of making something that people wanna watch or ingest or enjoy, then ⁓ then there's always an easy way to figure out how to make that function as a a piece of communication that works for a business as well.

Cole Heilborn (04:53)
Has advertising always been extractive? Like go back w to whenever the first advertisement was ever created. Like has it always been has this always been the nature of it?

Andy Pearson (05:02)
Well, if you want to go really far back, I would say yeah. I mean, if you're going back all the way back to like, you know, nineteenth century like newspaper ads and ⁓ stuff like that. But ⁓ you know, that that was obviously like, you know, you just repeat the thing five times or three times or whatever. D the funny thing is if you look back at some of the stuff that was made in like the nineties and early two thousands, there was some wild shit that was on TV. There was some really remarkable, crazy

Spots and obviously it was like a really different media landscape than we live in today. God, this is such a I'm just talking about like media landscapes and stuff on a podcast. It sounds so professional. ⁓ but ⁓ it w it was just it was a totally different con like kind of context for the way that that advertising worked and the fewer channels and you had much ⁓ greater attention span and ⁓ not so much ⁓ you know, the ability to tar target different art audiences. So

You kind of had to make things with a little bit of a more broad appeal that would pull people in. ⁓ and I think now with the sort of fracturing of media, which in in some respects is really good, but in other respects it it kind of it means that brands have to make way more things and have to be much more targeted. And it and generally it means the quality of that stuff goes down because

You know, I mean, you know, we're all we're all doing more all the time and there's only there's still only twenty four hours left in the day that we have to do it in. So inherently some of the the the quality and thought behind that stuff kind of tends to go down.

Cole Heilborn (06:44)
⁓ what's your if you had like give me a candid analysis of the outdoor industry and the content and the creative and the campaigns that are being produced. How's the industry doing? ⁓

Andy Pearson (06:56)
I think there's interesting stuff going on. I think, you know, my just for background, my perspective, I'm you know, I'm out lover of outdoors, but you know, my my main focus is ultra running. That's so I'm kind of looking at through, you know, more a like trail running lens of the stuff that I see. But I I think I think it's a it's an exciting time because I think there's a a lot of brands that are being started by

younger, quote unquote younger people who actually kind of grew up in in again in this kind of like internet media landscape and are creating some really interesting brands ⁓ and are seeing that by doing more standout work they can ⁓ they can kind of like quickly make a name for themselves. ⁓ you know I think maybe the the days of like

The beautiful 30 minute documentary that somehow is brought to you by Patagonia at the end or something. As as wonderful as that stuff is, I think again, like people don't have the attention span to ⁓ to to watch stuff like that or to kind of take it in. And so I think like there's there's sort of like a modernization underway, at least again from my perspective on on just like

the way that brands are being built and the way that they talk in the outdoor space. And I think I don't know, I think it's kind of exciting. And I think it it is hopefully kind of drawing in new people from the outside that n maybe wouldn't have been felt like they were being spoken to before.

Cole Heilborn (08:35)
Who are some brands that are ⁓ are are of note that you're keeping track of?

Andy Pearson (08:40)
I mean I mean love or hate satisfy is doing wild shit. And I yeah, I mean I just I I have so much respect for those guys. ⁓ I got to actually meet them early on. Like when I started Liquid Death, they hit us up ⁓ like maybe four years ago and they they really wanted us they wanted to put on a

They wanted to like put on a race in Death Valley together or something like that. And I was like I was like, hey man, I'd love to. I I don't think we're equipped to like put on an ultra race. That's not really how Liquid Death is like set up to do that. ⁓ but I I just I love that they're just coming in with such a wildly different perspective. ⁓ obviously very divisive, but like hard to ignore. And, you know, no matter what you think of the circle pit, ⁓

People were people were talking about it.

Cole Heilborn (09:37)
Yeah, okay. Fair enough. So, you know, one of the what one of the things I'm excited to like try to understand your your perspective on is as we're launching this, what we're calling the relevance project. Yeah. I want you to try to like pressure test some of this stuff for me and tell me what what your hypothesis is. Do you think there's something valid here? Like what are we maybe ⁓ not thinking about? Like what blind spots spots spots might we have? so some of the questions that I'm hoping

That we can answer with this is can a brand cons that consistently creates audience first content reduce its reliance on paid media while maintaining or improving the efficiency of that paid media? ⁓ what measurable signals indicate that building an owned audience is creating future demand? And then the last one, can consistently creating high attention content increase a brand's share of voice? And does that correlate with revenue downstream? These are some of the things that I'm wondering about.

Like what's your first gut impression of of those questions?

Andy Pearson (10:39)
Of the questions themselves. I think th yeah, I think those are all the right and those are certainly all the right questions to be asking is like, does this kind of thinking have genuine impact? do you want to go through and talk about each Okay. So what was the first one again? What what

Cole Heilborn (10:52)
Sure, yeah, please.

First

one was can a brand that consistently creates audience first content, reduce its reliance on paid media and or improve its efficiency of paid media.

Andy Pearson (11:06)
Yeah, almost certainly. ⁓ I mean, again, i well, assuming that the the work that they're making is great and it's connecting, I mean, I guess we'll we'll make that assumption across the board here. ⁓ but we've I mean we've certainly seen that. I l Liquid Death, for our first mm, maybe like four years really didn't buy media. We our growth was done almost really almost exclusively through organic ⁓

through our own organic channels. ⁓ we're now up to about seven and a half million ⁓ on Instagram followers and then also about seven and a half on TikTok as well. It's something like that. It's about 15 total. ⁓ and that was all, you know, grown almost exclusively just through organic content, through ⁓ both sort of what what I'd call like higher produced

quote unquote campaign pieces, which I don't really like to think of them as campaigns, but just kind of like bigger content plays. And then also sort of the ground and pound ⁓ social content that we're doing. and ⁓ you know, we're at a scale now where we do have kind of switched into a a more media focused mode just based on where we are as a as a in our growth as a brand. ⁓

But yeah, I mean, certainly the early years, the first like many, many years that I was here, it was almost entirely organic. ⁓ and you know, if you want to get real into it, like, ⁓ you know, the social platforms are sort of doing more of a pay to play at this point with a lot of their content where they are ⁓ there is a bit more

Boosting required and some putting some money in to make sure that people are actually seeing your content. ⁓ but but certainly it's it's available if if the content is good and it's getting out there.

Cole Heilborn (13:09)
So for someone who's listening to this, like for instance, some of the brands that we're talking with, right? They're like a solo owner operator, they're sewing clothes in their living room and they're listening to them this and they're like, Well, I'm not liquid death. what's what's the principle though that can be applied at any scale from what you guys have figured out how to do?

Andy Pearson (13:31)
I I mean to me again it's about making since we're sitting here talking about the relevance product, ⁓ you know, unexpectedly relevant work. And I think there's I think there's two things. There's there's some people that, you know, in the marketing space are kind of

Chasing trends, kind of trying to invent viral content. ⁓ and that certainly is one way. And you see like you'll see these little like spikes from from some random taco shop that has like some vi credi incredible viral video that's spread around. And ⁓ you know, I don't know what their what their full idea is, other than they had a really good idea one day and they they put it out there. ⁓ I think for us it's humor. I mean, people share what's funny and what they love and ⁓

And I think ⁓ like for us our playbook has from the beginning has been to be the Red Bull of humor. Like that was a really simple notion from pretty early on that that that's what we wanted to be. Because if you look at I mean, humor is everybody wants to laugh, everyone enjoy like wants great content. Like the stuff that I always share with my dumb friends are always like

Someone getting by someone getting hit by a bull at a rodeo after they did a backflip off a fence because it was really funny. ⁓ but like it is a universal it is a universal thing and I think humor is not something that is often ⁓ it just isn't given much credence in the marketing world because for for a number of reasons because it's not

like it's not serious. It seems like it's harder to do than than other, you know, than a very easy thing that's just gonna be we're gonna talk about how great these pants are and not worry about doing humor. But to me, the thing that I always say it's like humor requires that the person on the on on the speaking end and the receiving end are both looking at something and agreeing that it's true. And so like

There is no faster way to connect with someone or or to get to the truth than through a joke. And ⁓ and I think that it's just it's not a considered tool in the toolkit for a lot of people because maybe it it feels too hard or it it ⁓ but but it it doesn't, it just takes practice.

Cole Heilborn (16:11)
Was the playbook built around organic because that's what was possible, or because you saw more power in organic than paid at the time?

Andy Pearson (16:20)
really both. I mean, you know, a especially when we're early days, we're we're we we're and still are startups. So, you know, we the money ⁓ is is limited and ⁓ and so I mean it comes from like old days at I I was lucky enough to work at some really big agencies and ⁓ ad agencies and like this one Crispin Porter Boguski that was this really incredible agency out of Boulder, Colorado for a while.

⁓ and you know, the they they didn't I wouldn't say they in necessarily invented it, but they w kind of weaponized, for lack of a better word, this idea that like earned media can it it can do, you know, it takes your little tiny thing and it goes way farther than you could ever do with any sort of media spend. And so, you know, when we look at the stuff we do at Liquid Death, we're able to

the when we look at the actual budget, the the the media spend that we would have had to get to get the reach of of the some of the things we're achieving. I mean it is like hundreds of times X what we're what we you know spent on the actual original piece of content to begin with. ⁓ it just helped you know you can just go so much further. So again as like a as a tiny ⁓ starting out company, obviously that's really

The way to go. You see a lot of people dump money into ⁓ I would say like meaningless thing, like media in the hopes that this is gonna be it. ⁓ you know, I think ⁓ like sponsorships and stuff like that. I mean, we get hit up for dirt bike from like dirt bike riders or you know, they're like, we'll put your logo on whatever. And that stuff is, you know, there's all these things that again have been in like the traditional media.

playbook and marketing playbook that are just easy way to light your all your money on fire. And ⁓ and certainly like, you know, chasing virality, chasing organic social is way more difficult than cutting a check to someone and ⁓ and putting a logo out there or running running something. But on the, you know, on the flip side, the the rewards are, you know, significantly higher if you feel like you have the ability to be able to to

To make work that connects with people.

Cole Heilborn (18:50)
And and is the end result of that an audience? Is that what you're after? Or ⁓ like how do you think about audience building? Is it right for everyone? Do you view it as an asset? How do you think about?

Andy Pearson (19:03)
Yeah. I mean, for us, again, like starting from I mean, we started from zero. ⁓ I mean, essentially six and a half years ago, we were we did not exist. And ⁓ now, you know, we became one of the fastest growing non-alcoholic beverages on the planet. And and yeah, so it we've been we've been really stoking like the awareness play early on. And you know, I remember when I started, it was like

you know, it was like one percent of people knew who we were, like aided awareness was like one percent or something. And you know, through all of our moves, we're we're have massive awareness now because of what we've been doing. And so ⁓ yes, bigger audience, ⁓ are all those people necessarily, you know, picking up liquid death every day? Certainly not, ⁓ because you're, you know, we're growing kind of a

bigger audience, but the that was the idea was to make Liquid Death into sort of like a content hub that people would draw in and and you know, ⁓ and so yeah, we've we've grown sort of like our slice of the sort of media pie. And then on top of that, you know, like I said, because we we're we've been lucky enough that we've grown this massive audience. Now anytime we do something and we want to put it out, suddenly we have crazy own channels across social and CRM and PR, not not PR is not owned, but we've

proven ourselves there as well. So people really want to cover what we're doing. And so anytime we do something new, it's a re it's like a pretty easy lever to pull. ⁓ and then on top of that, you know, for us, you know, this is another thing to consider ⁓ with with small businesses is, you know, with like retailers and stuff as well. Like the shelf space is if if you're ever sending selling in retail, you're not just convincing consumers, people that you have a great product, you have to consider a whole new set of

suits somewhere in a room that ⁓ that people also want your product. And so you have to have a really compelling s business story to to show them. So us walking into a room and saying, hey, you've never heard of us, but we have a following of four million on Instagram or whatever it was at the time, like that's a ⁓ massive, you know, a massive foot in the door ⁓ on that. So some of the moves have been both on the consumer front and also sort of on the more hidden ⁓ you know, business front as well.

Cole Heilborn (21:28)
I see. ⁓ when is audience building the wrong approach to take for a brand? Like what set of circumstances would have to in internally make for that to not be the move to make? Is there ever a situation where where it's not valuable? Or or the quote unquote right choice?

Andy Pearson (21:47)
⁓ that's a good question. I I think obviously there are some

No, I mean I think I think the the one thing would just be if you you've grown an audience that's like so wildly irrelevant for what you're actually what you're actually doing and and you know I I see that sometimes with like some of the again some of the brands that are kind of viral for ⁓ for reasons that are adjacent to their brand, but not the brand itself. And so I do

I do often wonder if like that stuff is really as helpful as it could be when ⁓ maybe maybe the consumer and the the audience aren't overlapping. But again, like I mean the more eyeballs and the more people you can reach with your message, ⁓ I mean you're just allowing more opportunities to to get people in the system and then obvious and then as you go later on, then suddenly you have in you know.

hopefully you continue to grow and then maybe you eventually move into more targeted media. And now suddenly you have a a great way to you have all this, you know, data on your audience and you're able to segment and and really kind of get smarter about how you're approaching ⁓ people within that that audience that you've grown.

Cole Heilborn (23:08)
Do you have any examples that you can share that demonstrate a higher efficiency in the paid media that you're doing now because you took the time to figure out the organic side, like what people actually want to watch?

Andy Pearson (23:21)
Everything we make, we're thinking of, you know, posting it on social first, really. And so rather than starting with like, hey, let's run a TV commercial, let's make a TV spot. ⁓ we are building something that is inherently I'd say kind of more like gripping than a traditional commercial. And so we see the numbers on the performance of like something that we're running on C T V and they're always blowing away.

Benchmarks by many factors because, like, hey, guess what? We didn't set out to make a TV commercial, but it's in a pod with a bunch of other TV commercials, you know. ⁓ and so this thing that that doesn't feel like the other ones, of course, people are noticing and and are actually watching and and interacting with. So ⁓ yeah, I th that's you know, we always I mean, everything we do, we always see like higher ⁓ you know, usually high like way higher.

then industry benchmarks on ROAS and CTE and all this stuff. And ⁓ you know, it's partly because it's just a brand I think itself is so arresting, but it's also because the the work is crafted to function higher. And then and then you know our our head of media loves us because ⁓ we do all this like top of funnel work that then suddenly pulls all these people in and then suddenly we have all this ⁓ all these great people that all these great you know

This great work that gets people in the door and then they can kind of ⁓ get dumped into that funnel later on. So my ⁓ our head of media always talks about loving our our our top of funnel.

Cole Heilborn (24:59)
Have you ever tried to make like a non liquid death esque commercial? Like make a normal commercial and just see what would happen? Yeah.

Andy Pearson (25:06)
For liquid death.

No. ⁓ I mean we in not I mean in we probably we I I think that'd be really hard to do. Just like a really boring commercial and just throw. Yeah. No, that would be a funny test, is like ⁓ I haven't thought of that. Yeah, maybe we should do that.

Cole Heilborn (25:27)
⁓ so what so one of my other questions was like what measurable signals indicate that building an audience is creating future demand or will lead to future demand? Do you have any way to try and like if I was talking to a CFO and I was like, okay, this is the audience that we're building. However, we're not having an impact on revenue today. How can I try and articulate that or project that down the road? How do you think about that?

Andy Pearson (25:54)
Yeah, I mean it is it's certainly a little bit of the the magic in you know, I think there's obviously this whole thing is is science and magic together and ⁓ you have to you have to kind of I I don't know if that I can point to anything specific like here's the exact measurement that if you show this to somebody you're gonna grow. But

I mean, again, like for us, it's like I said, i we've grown for us in particular, we've grown awareness so high. And so now what it just means is that we are able to convert some of our efforts into a more, you know, a more conversion space. And so so now we've done the really hard work of getting people over the hump of even knowing who the fuck we are. ⁓ and so now with

you know, with a team around us, we're able to ⁓ sort of turn on those faucets to to another type of media, another type of creative and make it work. So I don't I don't think it's like pointing necessarily to any one ⁓ point of data, but it's more that that you've understanding that there's sort of these continual phases in in your in the marketing journey. And it depends on which one you're in, which will be

Which will be most important to you. And then how do you sort of evolve into that next phase as you've you've grown? And and you know, we did it first, like some some companies were focused totally on the early stage conversion stuff and they really don't care about the brand building. And, you know, you're just running all this D to C stuff. And we just we took a really opposite approach that I don't that brands tend to not follow as much, I think, as they're launching because it's again, it's really easy to do the

It's easy to do the ⁓ I d I didn't mean this in denigrating way, but like the simpler creative, the stuff that's really easy to turn on, that's easy to pump out. And so ⁓ it's a s much smaller barrier to entry. ⁓ and of course you can kind of get the immediate sales boost, but then are you giving up a chance to to grow an even bigger brand down the road? And so that was, you know, that's part of the, I guess, ⁓ calculation that we've been making.

Cole Heilborn (28:20)
Are you a patient person?

Andy Pearson (28:22)
⁓ yeah, I would say s yes. I'm probably way too patient actually. Yeah.

Cole Heilborn (28:29)
Is that why I mean, I know there's it's more than just you who's leading this thing, but is that in part why you feel like this approach works?

Andy Pearson (28:37)
⁓ n well, I mean, it's not it's definitely not just me. You know, our founder was a designer creative himself, ⁓ from ad agency days. And, you know, w I he understands that the thing we're doing is a long game. It's like you can't just turn on something overnight and expect, you know, expect the money to flow in that w what we're kind of building a a body of work over time. ⁓

And so ⁓ yeah, I think we see creators, I mean like dude, this this my my favorite story about this is I worked at this agency called Deutsch and I worked on the pizza account for ⁓ about a year and I was not really involved in the rebrand, but this is this is back in like I don't know, twenty fourteen or something, and they decided they want to do a full rebrand.

And so they worked on this big rebrand, new logo, this whole campaign. It was like it was involved with this. There was already this menu overhaul that they were doing. And ⁓ they shot this big campaign. They went to Italy to shoot all these spots and ⁓ came back. I mean, it this took like like over a half a year to put this whole thing together. And they launched the new brand and the new campaign.

And they were like a week into the launch and pizza was like, Yeah, the numbers, they're just they're not popping. We're gonna pull the work. And and I just remember being on the sides and was like, What the fuck? You did a full rebrand and after a week they they felt like the numbers weren't hitting and they pulled they they dropped the campaign. And I was like I was like I I just I felt like I was taking crazy pills.

⁓ and you know, there's like that sort of thinking is just ⁓ it that's the kind of stuff I think that like leads to us being like, give things time, let them grow, do your thing. And also, I mean, part of ⁓ I'd say also part of the thing that we've learned here is like just trying a lot of things and seeing what works is the is in a lot of ways the best way to do stuff. You like you never know what's gonna hit from one thing to a next. And it's the same way as

You know, ⁓ the way like comedians work is that they're like rewriting jokes and trying new stuff out live and you have to kind of like throw stuff out there to to figure out what it works. It's it's we work very quickly, but it is a it's kind of a a slower process of like shaping things live over time versus ⁓ trying to get it perfect the first time out the door and then maybe you've put all this time and energy in something and it misses. Like maybe the better way is to try little

things over time that don't take as much work and aren't quite as polished, but suddenly like now you've tried this thing and you know this thing works, but this thing doesn't. And so I think that's been a lot of the what we've been doing here is is ⁓ testing out things live, like small bets and seeing what works and then putting putting money and gas behind things that we've we ⁓ now know for sure we when we've got a winner on our hands.

Cole Heilborn (31:58)
Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ that agency story makes me think that that's ⁓ great job security for the agency, assuming they didn't get fired out of that whole reprint.

Andy Pearson (32:08)
no,

they di no. Well, Pizza Hut w chose Pizza Hut would pick a new agency like every eight months they were

Cole Heilborn (32:15)
Awful. It ⁓

Andy Pearson (32:17)
It's one of those things where it's like you're like, it's definitely if if it's like you if you always have shitty roommates, it's like maybe it's not them kind of situation. It's very much the same way with them. They like always w kept jumping agencies every couple of months and you're like, hm.

Cole Heilborn (32:34)
Yeah, it's like, how do I end up in a bad relationship? Every single relationship. Exactly. Yeah. ⁓ okay, tell I I I want to run this this concept by you. I feel like part of the reason why outdoor brands, like, you know, I'll use the sea of sameness ⁓ description. A lot of the reason why someone even fall into that is because they don't have a distinct or not even distinct, just like an interesting point of view on the world. Yeah. That then informs how they show up in that world. ⁓

Would you agree, disagree? I know you talk a lot about thinking about brand as a character. Yeah. ⁓ and so I'm curious if this is like an interchangeable concept point of view or character or how you think about brand in the world.

Andy Pearson (33:15)
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, seam sameness is very difficult in outdoor space because ⁓ you know, it's like how many trees are we gonna show in this one? You know? maybe we'll put five in this time or you know, may it so i i you we're all you're all kind of working from the same the same clay in a sense. There's the the palette is so much smaller, right?

and so it makes sense. It makes sense that that there would sort of be a mushing towards the center of of what everything looks and sounds like. And but but yeah, I the way that you know what what you're talking about, I I kind of tend to think of liquid death, and I think we should think of brands as characters and ⁓ to kind of unpack that, you know, a

A brand is like a very a brand exists in sort of a like here's a PDF of our brand book and here's our tone of voice and we talk like this and we don't talk like this and ⁓ we would never do this, but we would do this. And and but characters are just like fucking weirdos. And we like as people, we love watching characters. I mean, pick any movie that you love or TV show, like the characters.

They're they sometimes they don't make sense or sometimes they're like they surprise you or they're they do weird things and you like them because they're they're a little messy, maybe, or s or whatever it is. And so ⁓ I think like if if we start the the idea of a brand is usually to to box things in, right? A brand is like a box that is contained and I think like a character is

much more of s something that can go out in the world is more like an expansive idea and doesn't always make you you can't sometimes can't even write it write it down and understand it. Like ⁓ early on with I've I've told this story before, but like early on with Liquid Death, I was trying to build a brand book just to figure out what I was doing. And I everything I wrote down I hated and I hated this whole document that I was building that was like

had these little pithy explanations of what we do as a brand. And ⁓ so like after like five or six months, I was just like, fuck it, we're just not gonna have a brand book. And I think it was like a pretty consequential decision that I didn't realize at the time because ⁓ because it was like, right, we just like let let it go and be where it wants to be. And I think the the brand is a very direct reflection of all of us who work on it because it's

really one to one on all the the weird things in our heads. And so if you're having a small brand that you're building, like that's great. You have you you have a real impact and kind of thinking of it that that differently. And the nice thing that the brand does is it helps it it causes action. And it it rather than like, hey, let's make an ad, it it's the thought of like what would X brand or or company or whatever, what would

we do in this situation. And ⁓ it leads to just kind of a different way of existing and thinking in the world. ⁓ that's not so much about like shouting and telling you what we value. It's about how do we prove it out or how do we do something or how do we show up somewhere. ⁓ and so especially in something that like again in a a very social forward ⁓ landscape, like

it allows for the brand to kind of be living and breathing and interact with people and have encounters and do weird stuff that maybe wouldn't normally be expected. And I don't mean in like a goofy character way. I mean in like a deep like who is the like if we imagine this as a as a an entity bumbling through the world, like how does it bump into people and what happens when that when that occurs?

Cole Heilborn (37:28)
So to this day there's zero documentation that describes the brand?

Andy Pearson (37:32)
Yeah, yeah. I I couldn't I I mean we have some like visual brand guidelines on stuff, but ⁓ I mean I honestly couldn't I don't think I could describe what liquid death is to to anybody if I was like forced to maybe at gunpoint I could. ⁓ but usually I just say like hey, go watch our YouTube channel. Like just go there and like any like even when we bring employees on, I'm like, hey, good luck, man. I don't know what to tell you. Just but I'm like I'm like, hey, go watch everything we've ever made.

And you'll get it. And I see. And ⁓ you have to kind of like absorb it more than be told it also. Because ⁓ and it it's funny now because even in early days when we'd work with ⁓ partners or brands or other people or whomever, people would really they would when they if they were like pitching us ideas, they were totally off. Like they were always they're like, then it's like a it's like a ha

Death metal thing and the Grim Reaper is descending from this. And we're like, guys, it's we're a funny brand. Like, we're not trying to be scary or hard. We're trying to be funny. And we just use that stuff to be funny. And I I have noticed now, after years, like the quality of stuff that we get when people are pitching us ideas. Like people are a lot more on on board because they've they've kind of understood it after so many years. But

But people liked us before, but I don't think they fully understood why. And I think now over time it's it's become a little bit more ingrained.

⁓ I ⁓ I wouldn't advise that. I mean, I do think like I here's here's the here's also my practical side on that thing. I was like going back to the Pizza Hut thing too, it's like you build a brand book, you do all this work, and then it becomes a hundred and fifteen page PDF that goes in your desktop until your desktop is too cluttered that like somehow it just ends up in your trash and you never you never look at it again. And the the other thing ⁓ the other thing I think is really tough about

doing that sort of like upfront branding. And I've experienced this many times in my career, is it's all theoretical until you have to make something. And you probably know what I'm talking about, where you're like, you're like, okay, here are the brand guidelines. And then you're like, now we gotta make this thing. And you're just like,

Cole Heilborn (39:58)
Well I so I don't know, two months ago I was scrolling through an old client's brand book. They're a cycling manufacturer. Yeah. And I you know, I was I was going over it because I was like developing this project in the background. I was like, I want to look at all the brand books I've ever been sent. Cool. And ⁓ yeah, it was like, you know, here's our visual identity, here's our attributes, here's our core customers. And then when it got to the slide about digital content, the

The strategic recommendation was invest in big bold YouTube content. And I was like, what what what what are you supposed to do with that? Yeah. And so I yeah, like translating a brand into something that's actually interesting and into content, like that's a whole nother piece of the brand book that seems to be missing.

Andy Pearson (40:46)
Yeah, and and I guess to my point, it's not something that you can

like predict in a vacuum. Like it's it's like you kind of you even when you do these, and again, I've built plenty of brand books, it's like you have some theories. You're like, here's what we think is good. And then usually when the rubber meets the road, you're just like, ⁓ this doesn't work, or like this is not even close. ⁓ and so you have to kind of like I I think that thinking it helps get some things down on paper. But until you start to

And I think that's why like thinking about it like a character is it can be helpful too is is then you're like, okay, yeah, but what do we do? And then you kind of start to like put yourself in the framework of an actual, you know, you're acting in a way. And so you're like, okay, so what what happens next? What do we do? And then that's it it it just it's sort of almost like method acting, I guess, in a sense. And you have to kind of live inside of it and figure it out that way versus just

you know, having it hit your eyeballs from a a screen and then trying to in infer what could possibly come out of that. So it it should be messy. I think like obviously the visual branding stuff can be figured out ahead of time and that's ⁓ that's great stuff. But then when it comes to the actual like what what are you guys making? What do you stand for? That has to be a inherent or should be like a messier process that's way more open ended that you can you you leave yourself open to try stuff out.

And then figure out what works. And then you hit on, you're like, this is this is who we are. This like ideally the stuff you make also to my point earlier, like ideally it resonates with you, especially, and I'd say especially the outdoor brands, because like I think outdoor brands are especially positioned because anybody in the space genuinely cares about the thing that they're doing. Right. We all get into outdoor stuff because we we love it. And so you want to make more of it. You want to get more people in.

And I obviously that's like that's a I would say that's a huge gap to ⁓ from the rest of the marketing world because you could just be on like energizer battery and you're like, Well, I guess I care about batteries for the next six years of my life or whatever, Ritz crackers, and you're like, Yeah, Ritz, it's I I love the buttery flavors or whatever. But like, so that's a huge advantage in the outdoor space, is that we all we all love the thing that we get to do. And so

Ideally the stuff that we are making isn't just like selling, like finding the things that is like genuinely resonating with you. And if it's resonating with you, guarantee you're gonna find a lot of other people that care about it as well. No one thought like a punk water brand or whatever would like have an audience, but ⁓ turns out there's a lot of other people out there who like the same stuff that we like. No one had ever like thought to kind of make something that that looked like them before though.

Cole Heilborn (43:47)
So if you were in my shoes and I was trying to help some brands articulate their character, so to speak. Yeah. ⁓ what what would you recommend? I mean, like I could come up with stuff, but like how do I because I also know you've said like the immediate, you know, any time that it gets down on paper, it like loses its essence or it loses what it's its its potential. ⁓ any recommendations for how I could try and like walk that line between maintaining the integrity of the character while still

finding ways to communicate it and and translate it and help the team figure it out.

Andy Pearson (44:24)
Yeah, I mean, not writing stuff down is a very bad idea, probably for like ninety-nine percent of the use cases. It was it was I was just more like frustrated. and ⁓ so yeah, I mean obviously you're gonna have to to write stuff down. But again, I think ideally it'd be like let's go make stuff and then figure out the things that we like. And then again, like the same way that I point people to their YouTube, I'm like, I'd rather have people watch some things.

And even if they're like little test things that you're making, that's a better way to kind of pressure test all these things. ⁓ but I think this sounds weird, but like it requires a significant amount of self-reflection, I think. And again, going back to like the outdoor space when it's really created by the people behind it ⁓ and their passions. Like I think like spending time with

the founders or the marketing team or and like kind of having some I don't I don't think like necessarily like soul searching questions like but I I do think that the pro I would say the process for me of like going back and understanding all the things that I love, like going back to my childhood, all the stuff that spoke to me and the weird the movies I watched and the music and all that stuff and and the projects I did in school.

Like starting to understand that now I'm like, ⁓ that's what I'm doing. And so it helps like feed into it. And so I think, ⁓ I don't know, go get high with the whole marketing team. Is that a good idea? Probably not. But like I think I think like trying to understand where people are coming from and then pulling that collectively, because I think part part of that

Part of part of your job is to be this like mirror of the organization back to itself as well. Or at least kind of help them understand who they are, right? ⁓ and so I think the more that you can spend time and get into the psychology of who are the decision makers and what do they care about and what is like leading internally, like what are what are the things that make the people

distinct. ⁓ I think there's probably little things to glean out of that and and actually turn into the bigger brand things. I don't I don't think there's enough emphasis on on like the people inside the building that help turn into the stuff that goes outside the building.

Cole Heilborn (47:05)
Yeah. Do you feel like it's easier or harder today to be distinct as a brand?

Andy Pearson (47:11)
I don't think it's ever changed. I think again, I I think there's there's just a lot more all the time everywhere, all at once. So so but but I think the thing you see is that what often happens is that brands and people and everything just kind of follow the most currently successful thing, right? And so it's like everything looks like this.

I just saw this New York Times thing about like gloopy design and like the retro internet nineties design and how you know it's like look at everybody that's designing stuff like that now. And so yeah, that stuff works in the initial rocket phase because nobody looks like that. And then suddenly everyone adopts that and then that just kind of becomes this the standard thing. And so, ⁓ yeah, I I think like there'll there always be trends and I think the the

Goal is to find a thing that feels totally out of sync with what's going on. Like, you know, I think like I I mean to talk about like also content strategy and stuff with with liquid death, like we just we intentionally, you know, well, this is probably l much less so in the outdoor space, but certain certainly with like mass market stuff, there's so much trend chasing on social and with paid and everything. And so it's like

You know, ev suddenly everyone is posting that Taylor Swift meme in their feed and everybody looks like that today. And and ⁓ I understand why people need to do that, but I hate it. And and so when we do stuff, we we try to like launch it at total random. It's n it's apropos of nothing. There's nothing there's nothing that would lead you to believe that today we're gonna launch, you know, ⁓

urn with a Bluetooth speaker in the top with Spotify so you can play music into your ashes after you're dead. Like there's no reason to there's no reason to do that. That that campaign was actually supposed to come out in a Halloween and I I fought it 'cause I was like, it's gonna feel like all the how other Halloween stuff. And luckily it ended up getting moved. ⁓ but like if you're sort of doing the thing that everyone else is doing you just less noticing. And so intentionally, ⁓

We try to make everything that we're doing like quote unquote timeless or like out of sync with time. And that's what makes it way more timeless and interesting inherently.

Cole Heilborn (49:49)
You said you don't like to use the word campaign. Yeah. ⁓ why is that?

Andy Pearson (49:53)
it just because the things we do, like I don't have a better word for it. but you know, we launch a bunch of we launch a bunch of pieces of content and like we'll do something like probably thirty in a year, big pieces. And so they're like, you know, we have to there's stuff that goes around them that we do, you know, PR pushes and emails and social posts and all so it's like

It's kind of a thing that has to go out, but I don't like calling campaigns because they're sort of singular one off pieces of content. but also I hate the word content. So I'm kinda I have no better I don't know, videos, but videos sounds like so flippant. ⁓ I don't know, I I don't have a good word for it. Any of it. Also campaign. If you I ha I if you look into the etymology of it, it's like campaign was an assault. Ca it comes from like the French word, you know, French of like literally you're assaulting people.

So I think like ⁓ the idea of a campaign is not a super people forward way to think about it either, I'd say.

Cole Heilborn (51:02)
Yeah, there's a very ⁓ military-esque focus in the in the world of marketing and how we target people and how we target. It's right. Yeah, yeah. It's it's it's maybe indicative of like the lit larger philosophy around it all. Yeah. ⁓ so I've seen this. I've looked at like the amount of money that some brands are spending on paid and the amount of money that they're investing into organic. One instance it was like they're spending

Andy Pearson (51:05)
Totally.

That's it.

Cole Heilborn (51:31)
I it was like four hundred thousand annually on paid. Something like twenty five hundred a quarter. So what is that? ⁓ ten thousand annually inorganic. It's a very big discrepancy there. I know it's a case by case situation. You don't know who it is. Why why the discrepancy?

Andy Pearson (51:50)
Because again, because you know that that media is gonna get in front of people, right? It's like it's the easiest choice. You're like you're like, Yes, I put this money in and then I get this thing out. And ⁓ and again you can way more trackable, obviously you can see the s the exact numbers that you're getting conversions and click throughs and all this stuff. And so you just organic doesn't allow you that that sort of certainty or

⁓ important measurements. So I think I under totally understand it. And ⁓ but there's also ways to do organic smarter. You know, you can do you can boost content. You can do collabs with with other people maybe you can ⁓ work with you know you can work with content creators there's there's ways that it's not just like we're gonna give the social team ten K this year and like

Good luck, guys. You know.

Cole Heilborn (52:51)
There's a perception out there that brand building is is slow. It takes time, which it does. However, it seems like maybe you guys have figured out a way to expedite that process. ⁓ would you agree that brand building is inherently slow, that it has to be slow? ⁓

Andy Pearson (53:08)
⁓

I mean it like I said, I mean like I said earlier, I mean it takes it it it takes time. I mean you can't you can't expect like I mean, do you like think of all the people you randomly meet at a party or at you know wherever you're at and you're like, I don't remember like you know how how many ti this happened the other night. I was meeting with someone, I was like, Hey, nice to meet you He's like, We've met before and I was like, Great, I'm so sorry But like

It just it that it takes time with people and it takes time with brands, anything like that. And you know, we get especially nowadays, brands have such as they probably should, little tiny s less slivers and less slivers of our attention. And so yeah, you can't expect it to happen all at once. you know, for us, I mean, think of the we we've we've put out I mean, I can't even count how many pieces of work we've put out in the world.

⁓ to get to where we are now. but again, they were smaller pieces and we we didn't put a ton of effort into them. But ⁓ yeah, and I I think it's inherently gonna go slowly. And again, the other thing I'd say is talking about the quality of interaction. The quality of interaction is significant here. So if it's just yes, you had some eyeballs exposed to this piece of, you know, paid, is that really

that of course that's not gonna be brand building, but like the ⁓ the interesting thing with us is the the can itself is such a wild interaction because I've I've been told the story hundreds of times where people are like, Man, I thought liquid death was a hard seltzer or a beer and and I was at a party and someone handed it to me and I was like, No, I wanted a water and then I looked at it and they're like, It is a water and then I and I had no idea what it was and then I

drank it and it was amazing. And so like that a lot of like for us, a lot of that that first interaction, this idea of like the interaction is us reframing what you thought of it in the first place. Maybe you're aware of it, but suddenly you have this total 180 on what we were. And then that I mean that's a really powerful connection ⁓ with people that ⁓ that kind of kick starts that like brand building process. But ⁓ yeah I mean inherently you're gonna have to just like with anything else you're gonna have to

you know, build a relationship with someone and get to know them and you learn about them. And so, ⁓ yeah, that can take certainly can take years. ⁓ also I'd say it depends on the category. Sometimes it's like, I mean, you know this, you get a piece of gear and you're like, fuck, I love this. And you're just like in on that. I mean, that happens to me all the time where I find a a gear brand that I love and I'm just like, Well, I just do this now. ⁓ so I I think it it it certainly depends on the category as well.

Cole Heilborn (56:04)
Yeah. Okay. All right. What what blind spots might we have based on what you understand at this point? Is there any ch is there any assumptions here that you would challenge or push back on? Or cautionary tales?

Andy Pearson (56:16)
Cautionary sales. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think the one like and I kind of said this before, the caveat is like it's all it's art and science. And you can you have to have both for them to function. You can't just be a really smart ⁓ you can't just be a really great marketer. You have to also back that up with like really great stuff that you're putting into the putting into the system as well. ⁓ because you know, we've been very lucky where we have a lot of smart people here.

Over liquid death. ⁓ but then also the stuff that we're putting on the world, I get to be really dumb and make silly, silly stuff that connects with people. And so I don't know. You have to I and I I'm very lucky that my team here I'm surrounded by some really incredible artists and entertainers and people that I am just have such high respect for them as as creatives. And so ⁓ you know, without that.

Liquid Death looks a lot different. And I think like without ⁓ you ha you have to serve both of those masters very equally for the stuff to work. It can't just be this sort of like academic pursuit of that. So that that'd be the one thing I'd say is like you gotta have good stuff going in to get great stuff coming out.

Cole Heilborn (57:32)
If you had to leave the outdoor industry, I'm not presuming that the entire industry is listening to this podcast, but if so but what would you wanna leave what would you wanna leave them with? ⁓ what sort of lasting thought or challenge or whatever?

Andy Pearson (57:48)
I mean, I would say like, what's the stuff that you like? What's the stuff that gets you amped? ⁓ I think that if if anything, to me, that's that's my biggest thing, whether it's outdoor or beyond, it's that this marketing thing shouldn't be divorced from what you as a person genuinely like. And and I think again, I just I think there's such a big opportunity for brands that are having fun and not taking themselves so seriously and that are just

trying to like fuck around and have a good time and look at the best the best work out there is always that stuff that ⁓ that doesn't quite feel like it should be there to begin with. And so ⁓ but that's what's the most interesting thing to watch and see and and so I think I think it's like pulling w whoever you are, kind of pulling your head out of your butts, looking around and ⁓ you're like, yeah, but what what would be like what would be really fun to do?

And I think there's not as much and in the I think there's just not as a a premium put on like the genuine act of having fun often enough. ⁓ because when you are having fun as the person behind it, people will have fun with you. That's what I've I've learned from this job is like if I'm having a really good time, the people can sense that through the work that we're making. And the biggest compliment that I always feel like I receive from people is.

Is like, man, it seems like you guys are having a lot of fun over there. And I'm like, yes, thank you. Like if that's like if you can sense that through the work that we get to make, like that is a crazy powerful psychic connection that we've we've made with people. And ⁓ and so like if you can, as the person on the making side of things, if you can have fun doing it, people will

a hundred percent feel it on the other side and like fun is a very contagious thing and people will want to have fun with you. And ⁓ yeah, I think that I mean it sounds dumb to say out loud. It's like have fun, but genuinely if you can find the joy in it and and having fun with it, ⁓ it'll be felt from the outside as well.

Cole Heilborn (1:00:01)
⁓ last question and then I'll let you go. You guys are are typically looked at or framed at as like marketing done right. ⁓ and obviously for a lot of reasons. ⁓ what are you what are you guys doing wrong? What are you what are you questioning? What are you ⁓ what don't you know the answer to?

Andy Pearson (1:00:20)
What don't I answer to? I mean in some respects we're I mean, we're making this up as we go along. You know, like I don't think we have all the right answers. ⁓ but I think that's why that's why it works is because we're not trying to be experts on anything. Anyone who's like telling you that this is the way it should work. And and again, like that's hopefully that comes across. I'm not

I'm not saying there's like a one size fits all. I'm just sort of like, hey, these are the things that work for us. But ⁓ yeah, I I don't I don't think that I I we're we're sort of making it up as we go along, but I mean that in a good way because what it it forces us to do is forces us to look at every situation that we come across or every decision we have to make. And we're like, okay, what should we do here? And I mean that in like a very naive sense of the way. It's like, okay.

If you've never if there's there's the like, hey, this is what best practices say in the way it should work, and then there's this other of like, Okay, we're we're a baby and we're presented with this idea, this thing. Like what would if I knew nothing about it, what would the right answer be? And sometimes those things are are s can be diametrically opposed. And ⁓ so yeah, I mean, I think like that's the the nature of that causes

I would say, you know, it's a wacky ride some days and you're I'm always I'm never surprised that I'm always surprised around here. I would say it's ⁓ it's you can get whiplash on ⁓ on all the stuff that's flying around over here. But that's what makes it fun too. ⁓ it just you know, it's you have to I would say be a very battle tested and

Perhaps patient ⁓ person to ⁓ to get that like you're on this wild ride. Well, what I have a bone to pick with with certain things is is ⁓ that like ultrarunning isn't considered an extreme sport. I was actually looking up. Yeah, I was I was like, I've never heard it referred to as that. And then I like I I looked up a for work list of extreme sports on Wikipedia the other day, and there was no ultrarunning. And I was like, I don't know, I just ran 200 miles around Lake Tahoe.

Cole Heilborn (1:02:32)
really?

Andy Pearson (1:02:46)
In like three days. Like that was pretty freaking extreme. ⁓ I don't I don't know how else to classify that than quite extreme. But ⁓ I think I think the fun is like that sort of extreme athlete mentality, and even a lot of the people that work here come from backgrounds of snow and ski and all kinds of and surf and all kinds of other stuff. And so, like, I do think a lot of us have that sort of mentality that allows us to kind of ride the wave, and we're like, all right.

Here comes another thing. Let's let's hop on and and see where this one takes us. So ⁓ yeah. That's that's sort of a non answer on what you just asked me. But I think ⁓ basically things aren't always as smooth as they maybe in other orgs, but like it's we are the I think the people here are ⁓ set up to succeed in that environment, and it's partly why we're able to do all the

The stuff that we're able to do is cause nothing ever stays the same over here.

Cole Heilborn (1:03:47)
And the fact that you haven't written anything down.

Andy Pearson (1:03:49)
Yeah, exactly. Like I said, we're making this up, man.

Cole Heilborn (1:03:53)
⁓ Andy, thanks for the time. I will let you get back to your day and whatever ultra races you have coming up. ⁓ I appreciate the thoughts and I appreciate yeah, what you spending the time with Take care. Yeah. Thank you for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please consider sharing it with a friend or leaving us a review on Apple.

Andy Pearson (1:04:04)
Yeah, thanks for having me. It was fun. All right. Yeah.

Cole Heilborn (1:04:14)
And remember, as you're working on that next piece of creative, the difference between creative that works and doesn't work often comes down to the hard questions that you ask while you're shaping it.

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