Cole Heilborn (00:00):

Had you not discovered that being involved from the beginning could have changed the trajectory of this thing?

Shelby Rossi (00:05):

Yeah, I feel like this product and this project specifically water icon, like our new surf helmet really set the stage or set this new format of ways of working at Oakley. If it weren't for this project, we would have no idea that we could break down those silos and be a part of this product development process. The collaboration aspect of that project is the reason why we were able to accomplish what we did. And my main takeaway is just bringing marketing closer to the product development process will only result in positive impact.

Cole Heilborn (00:40):

On this podcast, we go behind the scenes with industry experts as they break down what it takes to produce creative work that works. If you're seeking insights from some of the sharpest minds of the industry, this is your guidebook to producing creative work that actually delivers. Welcome to the Backcountry Marketing podcast. Today I'm sitting down with Shelby Rossi. She is the global brand manager for goggles and helmet at Oakley. Shelby, welcome.

Shelby Rossi (01:05):

Thank you, Cole. Happy to be here.

Cole Heilborn (01:07):

It's good to see you. Thanks for joining us today. We've got a fun conversation lined up. We're going to be talking about the benefit of bringing the brand team further upstream and integrating with product and r and d and what the brand and marketing team can learn by doing so as you then build out your campaign and your strategy into the rollout. So Shelby, tell us a little bit about why this is something you are passionate about. Why is this something that you think about and is important for other marketers who are out there in the space to consider as they're trying to figure out how to bring products to life?

Shelby Rossi (01:42):

That's a great question. Thanks, Cole. So I am such a geek about this stuff now, which I feel like a few years ago in my marketing career, I wasn't really thinking about product as much as we should as marketers. And I feel like over the last two or three years now at Oakley, I've really learned the opportunity and benefits of just getting yourself and getting your marketing organization closer to the product development process. And so I think first why I am so passionate about this is one, I'm a user of a lot of our products at Oakley and across goggles and helmets, but also of course eyewear. And so I actually participate in the categories that are mine at the brand. And so I feel like that's the first connection. And I just feel like as marketers, especially in the outdoor and action sports industry, a lot of us have that same story that we're personally passionate about, the categories that we're covering or the marketing campaigns that we're across. And so I feel like first and foremost, that is the first piece of passion for me is just I enjoy the sports that I get to cover in my job, which is amazing.

Cole Heilborn (02:50):

Before we start to dig into your guys' process and your secret sauce, so to speak, if you had to just give a blanket statement analysis of the average brands product marketing, how are folks doing from your perspective?

Shelby Rossi (03:06):

So just average in the industry that I see as marketers, oh man.

Cole Heilborn (03:13):

How much of it is fluff?

Shelby Rossi (03:14):

Yeah. Oh, I love that we're talking about this, and I'll try not to be feisty and rant about it for an hour, but I feel like as marketers we're so used to all the noise and fluff and everything just can feel like a really similar equation. And sometimes I feel like even in the categories that I cover across snow motors, sports bike, and sometimes even surf, it's all the same thing that we just see over and over and over again. And so I feel like the ways that I've seen product marketing is just a simple solution equation, which isn't bad. And I feel like in some instances that is the ticket of how to reach your consumer is really obviously stating the solution that your product is solving. But I feel like it's just how many times can you say that for a windbreaker or how many times can you say that for a mountain bike helmet that's really similar, looking to the other 20 mountain bike helmets on the shelf.

(04:15):

And so I feel like because there are so many iconic brands and so many brands that have been around doing the same thing now, I feel like product marketing right now in the market is definitely more problem solving. And I think that is a good approach, but I feel like there is some secret sauce that more brands can be doing. And something that Oakley has been doing a lot of is going even further back into that product development process to really find those unique problem statements that might get lost in the shuffle as that baton is handed off. And so that could mean a really small intricate design detail that you would miss unless you were in a design sketch review meeting, or it could be, I mean, there's an example I'm thinking of right now from our surf helmet that we recently launched. There's a specific reason why the support bars of the helmet are angled a certain way.

(05:19):

There's just so much science and innovation behind the smallest of details. And sometimes I feel like the bigger problem statements or solution statements I should say with product marketing can be a benefit depending on obviously the product that you're launching. But I feel like to really break through the noise, however cliche that phrase is at this point, as a marketer going back even further into the development process, you can get even more granular and more specific as to why that is a solution statement that's different from these other three surf helmets or you know what I mean? So I feel like there's no issue with doing these problem solution statements in product marketing. I just feel like as a brand and really in any marketing function, you can find so many more details and so many nuggets of information that really can set your brand and your product apart the closer you get to that product development process, if that makes sense.

Cole Heilborn (06:17):

Yeah, that does. Which leads me to my next question. Again, speaking simplistically at this point, what is the opportunity that's missed if the brand team waits for the product and r and d team to finish all the work and then pass the baton off and say, okay, now figure out how to bring this into the world. What's the opportunity if brand teams join r and d and product dev from day one?

Shelby Rossi (06:44):

Yeah, that's a great question. So I feel, and I guess I'm just saying this from personal experience, from other marketing jobs that I've been in, it is that classic baton handoff. So when a product from concept to consumer, there are hundreds I feel like of product handoffs or I always call them baton handoffs because we're all in this relay race of getting the product to market. And obviously it starts with the product brief and then it just has this crazy long journey to get to marketing and sales and all the things that we know. And so I feel like traditionally in my career, I have experienced just the one baton handoff, and that's from when product is ready and we're just ready to go to market and we need to do the photo shoot, we need to do the video shoot, all of that. And I feel like in the past it's been the very standard, who's it for?

(07:38):

Who's the consumer, what should the vibe be, what's the environment? And just really jump to creative, I feel like, to capture the story. And it's worked. And I know even in my previous experiences in my career that has worked, but again, I feel like it again, in where we are in this day and age with marketing and just always getting fed really cool videos, really cool emails, we're just always getting a constant feed of this information. I feel like there are so many opportunities missed if marketing just gets that baton handoff with no previous details or background of the why and how long did it take? How many people, engineers were on this product, how many problems did eight teams just have to solve before it actually got to marketing's desk? And I feel by focusing on each of those milestones or product milestones that we refer to as at Oakley, you get to pick up all these little details that are often missed just with the one baton handoff.

(08:47):

And so at Oakley, we've tried to incorporate marketing and for us it's brand, but honestly I feel like this can be done with any marketing function is plugging in marketing at each of those product milestones at a certain capacity. And so right when product is kicking off, their brief marketing should be present when the design team has it on their desk and they're starting to do sketch reviews and concepting and all of these beautiful things, marketing should be there, even at a manufacturing level, can we actually manufacture all of these things? Does this make sense? I'm more of a flaw in the wall because a lot of those topics go over my head, but it still just gives you more of a connection to that product and to the people behind it. And even after manufacturing, you think of colors, materials, and finishes like the creative team.

(09:44):

So each one of those departments has a why to how they're approaching that one product. And unless you're part of all of those baton handoffs, you can easily miss those things that would in turn give you that perfect product differentiation at the end to go to market. That does set your story apart from others. And again, I know I've used the helmet example before, but how many times can you say a trail mountain bike helmet is different and cool? So it's really finding these unique different ways of storytelling through that product development process, if that makes sense.

Cole Heilborn (10:25):

Yeah, that does. So this is something we've talked about on the podcast before, this idea of the sea of sameness. And there's a lot of ways you can,

Shelby Rossi (10:34):

That's a great phrase.

Cole Heilborn (10:36):

You can use that descriptive to look at things. In this case, I'm going to use it in the sense of a product lineup for a brand.

Shelby Rossi (10:42):

To

Cole Heilborn (10:42):

Your point, a lot of brands produce a puffy, a lot of brands produce a windbreaker. There's not a whole lot of difference between them from a technical level. But you gave me a question that I wanted to ask you to that point. When it comes to product differentiation, how much of the lack of differentiation that we see is due to r and d and engineering of product, and how much of it is the marketer and perhaps the subpar performance in turning that product story into something that's unique and differentiated and is positioned interesting in an interesting way?

Shelby Rossi (11:22):

Wow, that is a great question.

Cole Heilborn (11:24):

I know.

Shelby Rossi (11:24):

I feel like we could geek out on this for three hours. I am loving this conversation. This is all I want to talk about all day. So I feel like it depends. So for us at Oakley, and I've actually been exposed to this categorization at different companies that I've worked for, but something that I think sets a product apart at the get go is identifying if a product is a brand driver or a volume driver. And so if something falls under a brand driver, that usually means it's lower units. So there's no pressure from a sales perspective that we need to sell 30,000 of these helmets. But the intent is, hey, we need to exercise our muscles of innovation, technology, discovery, all of these things, and really reclaim a territory in this category or just state that we're going full gas in this category, whatever that intent may be.

(12:25):

A brand driver really has this beautiful capacity to turn into such a brand piece and such a brand statement through product and through design and innovation, which we know Oakley is known for that. And then the other category that a product can fall under to is this volume or energy driver where it's like, okay, we're going to do this new snow helmet and it's going to be a great price point, easy go-to person for the resort go or whatever, and 30,000 units. And so that type of product kickoff there still is innovation. There's still a beautiful design process. None of that is limited, but there's definitely a different intent. And so it really just sets that stage, or I guess sets the tone for how marketing approaches that one launch. And so I feel like when it's a brand driver, so for example, water Icon is our new surf helmet, and we look to that project and product as the hero golden example of how we wish we could do all Oakley projects because it was a beautiful brand driver project that we had this unlimited, it was like a whiteboard and we just filled it with how we wanted this product to be and come to life.

(13:38):

And so I feel like when it's a brand driver, r and d gets to shine, design gets to shine, just innovation really gets this platform. When it's a brand driver, when it's a volume driver, the story's different. It's more about reaching that consumer. Again, it's more for a commercial purpose. And so not saying that marketing doesn't do their job because there's still strategy behind selling to the masses if that's the intent, but I feel like marketing and r and d and Design get to shine when it's a brand driver initiative, if that makes sense.

Cole Heilborn (14:15):

Yeah, yeah. So let's talk about the water icon project because we're going to dissect this and use this as our case study for this concept of bringing brand

Shelby Rossi (14:24):

Upstream.

Cole Heilborn (14:26):

Can you kind of provide super high level, what is the water icon helmet? Yeah, we'll start there.

Shelby Rossi (14:34):

Yeah. Okay. So water icon again is just this beautiful example of what Oakley is capable of. And I don't even surf, so this is actually one of the categories I don't participate in. But with how much involvement there was from each team, I feel like I could go surf and actually know somewhat what I'm talking about just with the amount of resources that went into it and test trips and all of that. But so Water Icon is a beautiful example from Oakley of this brand driver concept. And it started with product believing that there was an opportunity and kind of this void of what a surf helmet could be. And we know that the surf helmet industry is still kind of kooky to some, and that there's a negative stigma with consumers and pro athletes of, oh, I'm not wearing a helmet that's kooky. And we saw that happen in the snow space years ago.

(15:36):

I mean, no one wore helmets on snow ever. And then it's slowly evolved and it's almost now if you don't wear a helmet, you're the kook. And so I feel like surf we identified as a brand, it was in that same territory of, okay, no one's really wearing helmets, why? And so product identified this great opportunity of the 2024 Paris Olympics, and for the surf portion of the Paris Olympics, the location was oo, which is a high risk, high consequence wave. That's intense. I have not physically been there, but even the photos make my hand sweat. And so years out product identified this opportunity and identified this opportunity in the market that there just wasn't a helmet available for the surf community that made people want to wear a helmet and be safer in the water. And it was just timed so perfectly because we're also seeing surf just advance more and more and more technologies.

(16:38):

You have the vests, you have all these things coming into play technology and innovation wise, and it just hadn't gotten to the helmet category yet. And so it turned into this incredible kind of case study task force approach where at the get-go product was like, okay, this is a crazy brief. We have never done a surf helmet. We've had helmets for a long time in our snow and bike categories, but surf helmets, everyone internally was like, wait, what? As a brand, we've been in surf forever in the nineties, two thousands, Oakley and Surf is just like it's a given. So even as a brand, I think we were like, wow, okay, we really are going to shine and be innovative and approach this as Oakley. And so the concept was new for us to have this task force approach, but it really, every week we met weekly, gosh, for almost two years, there was the product person who briefed in the product.

(17:37):

He was the person behind it all driving that energy. We had the lead engineer, lead designer. We have an entire UX team at Oakley, which is such a blessing that have them. But we had our UX team involved. We also had our sports marketing manager lead. We had product marketing comms. Everyone that was a part of the process of that product development process was at that table every week or calling in, obviously depending on schedules and whatnot. And so we were tackling this new category and new territory as a group because it was so new to us and we knew there was such a stigma marketing wise to and consumer wise that we really wanted to partner with product and the r and d team at the get-go to be like, how are we really going to do this? And what's the why that we can start thinking of and ideating around now?

(18:35):

And so by doing that and doing the weekly task force and the test trips, I mean, we were traveling. I remember Water Icon was my first experience traveling with the lead engineer of the project and the UX person. It was all of us where normally when we go on even photo shoots or video shoots, it's usually just the comms and marketing folks. But even in Water Icon, we had the lead engineer with us. It just was a very incredible cohesive synergy that we had throughout that entire process. And so it really set the stage for that problem statement really capturing all of the behind the scene work that was happening. We were chasing athletes around the globe. We were following WSL stops. I will never forget watching our lead engineer paddle out with prototype helmets strapped to his arms as he's paddling out and handing them out to athletes who are just practicing. That's when we were in El Salvador. It was such a scrappy crew, but it worked so well because marketing and comms, we were capturing those moments throughout the process. And so if we weren't a part of that, we would have no idea. It's one thing to say, oh yeah, we really innovated here. But to be able to capture it

Cole Heilborn (20:02):

From a mark, and when you say capture, you had

Shelby Rossi (20:04):

Camera

Cole Heilborn (20:05):

Crew there,

Shelby Rossi (20:07):

Everything was captured photo video at every test trip. Every WSL round pipe masters was a huge moment for us. We had a lot of athlete validation in January of 2024. That was kind of the end of the process. We were like, wow, this thing's dialed. We're ready for the Olympics. And so we had an entire crew at pipe Masters just capturing videos and moments. Katie Simers won the Women's Pipeline. Anyway, it was a beautiful example of just, it was almost like the product development process had its own internal marketing team just following each product milestone. And because of that, we were able to really showcase the process, how much innovation and technology really went into the product versus, okay, just let's hand this off to products and say, we innovated here, here, and here. We had, I don't even know how much foot, I don't even know the total, but we just had endless amounts of footage, photos, quotes, testimonials, all of these things that we had captured over almost two years worth of r and d.

(21:20):

And we were able to create this beautiful kind of mini documentary at the end that emphasized that exact story of Oakley r and d, Oakley Innovation, this is how we do things as a brand. And we created one of the best performing surf helmets now in the market. Not just saying that as the marketing person, but really working with Virginia Tech on helmet safety ratings. And there was just, I think there's a total of 52 patents on the helmet. There were so many layers to that project that if marketing wasn't involved with each step of the product development process, all of that would've been missed or it would've just been watered down to, oh, cool, we have a new surf helmet. It looks different. There's so much purpose behind each of those details from the designer to the engineer that we were able to capture and bring to life in that documentary and in assets, and even in our selling tools, the miniature catalog we made to sell that into our commercial team.

(22:25):

Because even for our commercial team, that was a new category. So it's like we checked all the boxes just because we had this small task force approach of how are we going to do this? Okay, how are we going to do this? And just approach it as a team, or sometimes I feel like it's really easy in a bigger brand, whether it's action sports or outdoor or any brand, I feel like silos are so easy between sales, marketing, creative. It's just eliminating all of those silos and breaking down those walls by emphasizing marketing's involvement. Even it's just being a fly on the wall and a phone call, marketing's involvement from day one of a product brief getting kicked off.

Cole Heilborn (23:09):

So okay. I want to come back to something you said and clarify. So you were talking about the stigma around surf helmets.

Shelby Rossi (23:16):

Yeah.

Cole Heilborn (23:17):

As kind of one of the core challenges that you had to overcome

Shelby Rossi (23:21):

In

Cole Heilborn (23:21):

Bringing this to life. You also mentioned the new territory that this product was for the whole brand as a whole.

Shelby Rossi (23:30):

Yeah, definitely.

Cole Heilborn (23:31):

And maybe I'm speculating here, but it sounds like there was some concern of like, well, we got to do this right? Because if we don't do it well, then it could die fired. We're going to

Shelby Rossi (23:40):

Be the kooks. Yeah, exactly.

Cole Heilborn (23:43):

So what was the risk that prompted this kind of all hands on deck approach to make sure that you did this in the most thoughtful, comprehensive way that you could, not only from the design side, but then from the marketing and comm side of how are we actually showing up and talking about this product in the marketplace, considering who our audience is and perhaps the stereotype that they hold towards this product?

Shelby Rossi (24:11):

Yeah, that's a great question. So I feel like starting with the negative stigmas around surf helmets and just athletes and even everyday consumers, not using them as much as you would think, going back to our UX team and the capabilities that we have with our UX team, when we get to do a project like this where it's more of a brand driver and it's kind of this blank canvas of how we want to approach things, we really lean into our UX team. We call it the Vision Performance Lab, is our internal team that we use. We always have this discovery phase. And so when we have this opportunity to do a brand driver product, we always start with UX and make sure that we are correct in our assumption of this product is needed, there's an opportunity here. And so we make sure to get that validated and make sure that we are on the right track before anything else.

(25:16):

And so with water icon specifically, there were, I can't even maybe 40 plus phone call interviews with old school surfers, new pros up and coming pros, not even pros yet, local legends. We were polling from sports marketing contacts, Oakley contacts, everybody. We were just getting this massive pool for interviews and just being like, Hey, what if? And the UX team just doing what they do best and just really assessing what is this market? What's going on? How do people perceive surf helmets? Why don't they wear surf helmets? And so with all of those interviews, we had a lot of athletes visit the Oakley headquarters here in Orange County. We also did a couple kind of not secret spy missions, but I remember I traveled with one of the UX partners to Northshore even before we started doing this project to get 30 pros in a room in a conference room in a hotel while they were getting ready for an event and walking them through a presentation and really doing an engaging questionnaire of, would you guys be interested?

(26:31):

The amount of upfront research we did as a brand was much needed for us to set us down the right path. Okay, this is why it sucks now. This is why athletes are turned off and they don't even want anything do with it, but they're also saying, Hey, surfing's getting really intense and it's pretty terrifying, and I am risking my life, so what can you guys do about it? So a lot of that upfront work established, here's this negative stigma, here's why here are the problem statements. And so because of our amazing VPL team, UX team, that was our starting point. And so because of that, we also followed those same athletes and interviewees and all of those people along the way of, Hey, here are our latest six prototypes, thoughts and literally walking athletes through this is why we're doing this, this is what we're thinking.

(27:21):

Again, our capabilities of rapid prototyping, which is so funny. I can even say that phrase, even before this project, I would have no clue what rapid prototyping means, but just by getting closer again to that product development process, I have a much bigger and broader idea of what this means as far as getting a product to market. But we would walk athletes through all of our rapid prototypes. They would have feedback, we could change it within the week and give them another version days later. It was a wild, really cool iterative process, if that makes sense.

Cole Heilborn (27:58):

Yeah. Gotcha. That's cool. Is there one takeaway that you had personally being involved with this project from the beginning that significantly influenced how the brand team brought this to life? Was there one takeaway or one insight that you kind of uncovered that had you not discovered that being involved from the beginning could have changed the trajectory of this thing?

Shelby Rossi (28:25):

Yeah, that is a great question. I feel like this product in this project, specifically water icon, our new surf helmet really set the stage or set this new format of ways of working at Oakley. And so I feel like the key takeaway for me with this project is just now the opportunity to be part of the product development process. And it was because of this project that light bulb went off not just for me, but for a lot of folks who were also experiencing this project together of like, wow, this was such an impactful story and really brought to light the why and the innovation and everyone's passion that literally blood, sweat and tears into this project.

(29:13):

If it weren't for this project, we would have no idea that we could break down those silos and be a part of this product development process. So it also, I guess a takeaway is just how collaborative everyone wants to be. So even though sometimes it's so easy to get in silos, the collaboration aspect of that project is the reason why we were able to accomplish what we did and showcase this beautiful product, this beautiful documentary, and just the story behind the why and the reason of water icon. And so my main takeaway is just bringing any marketing function closer to the product development process will only result in positive results or will only result in positive impact, I should say, as a brand also just I now have empathy for a lot of the behind the scenes functions of product development. So not saying that the reason why you should bring a product to market is to showcase and hero the champions behind the scenes, but it really is this beautiful, cohesive 360 approach of really heroing the engineers, the designers.

(30:27):

I mean, it's not often that you see a new product and you think, wow, an engineer worked on that, or that was a huge accomplishment for this team. And so I also just think another added benefit or takeaway is there are so many more people who touch a product before marketing and marketing just has the benefit to make it really cool, really showcase, I don't want to say flashy in a negative way, but we have a really fun aspect of the job with the end of the product development process. And I feel like traditionally that means the rest of the teams long before you, and in this case years before you get that baton, have no visibility, but they've contributed so much to that project. So I think for me too, a personal takeaway is being exposed to the hundreds of people that actually touched that surf helmet before we had the opportunity to bring it to life to the masses. And so I think just also understanding as a marketer that empathy not just for the consumer, but for all of these people that have put a lot of work into that product before you and all of these problems, they've solved all of that, it just really connects those dots and just makes that story more impactful as a marketer at the end when you really need to bring that story to life for that consumer.

Cole Heilborn (31:48):

Yeah. So talk to me about the creative that accompanied the launch of the product. Coming back to these problem statements and the insights that you uncovered, how did those affect the creative or help shape the creative as you were building it?

Shelby Rossi (32:04):

Yeah, that's a great question. So I feel like the biggest thing with water icon, when you see the helmet, a lot of traditional surf helmets are this enclosed bubble and you experience this parachute effect a lot, water gets trapped. A lot of the feedback from athletes was they feel like they can't fully submerge underwater. It's just this terrible user experience with an enclosed helmet. Water doesn't drain fast enough. There's all these problem statements from that style of helmet. And so with water icon, the r and d team, and so lead engineer and lead designer really concepted this beautiful crown approach where we actually opened the helmet up, so it looks like it has vents on it because it does, and most of it's actually open, so water freely goes through the helmet. They did so many different tests of the amount of seconds it takes to drain water out of the helmet. A lot of the design was around that concept of having water go through it. You could duck dive easier, you could do all these things easier because of that one and many other innovations, but that one was the main one. And so visually with our assets, a lot of the design was, or a lot of the visual approach was heroing, that ventilation piece.

(33:34):

There's some copy depending on the layer of asset and where it's being used, it speaks to that. But in a lot of the hero assets, no words are needed because it's such a new approach and new way to approach a surf helmet and the category in general that even the vents alone are really shocking. If you are used to surf helmets being one way, when you see water icon, you're like, oh my gosh, what the heck is that? It's pretty powerful visually as it is. And so I feel like a lot of the hero visuals really emphasize just the overall design and shape itself. And then even from a video format and color treatment format for the Olympics, there is this beautiful color treatment that the CMF team did incredible on where it was this reflective kind of glitter speckle effect, and it was beautiful.

(34:30):

And when the sun hits it, it was just this amazing translucent wild rainbow of colors. And so in our hero video and kind of our hero product glorification video, we have this beautiful 360 moment where it shows that, and because we're teeing up to the Olympics, we're getting ready to launch when the Olympics happen. And so we used that colorway and it was just visually so stunning and so different from anything you've ever seen in the surf helmet space and the comms team chasing. And Jess really brought that to life beautifully also just in the mini documentary of the approach. And so when you watch it, the product managers being interviewed, the lead engineers being interviewed, the lead designers being interviewed, all of these people who really have a reason and a why behind how they approach the product also came to life creatively and visually through that storytelling and just through that brand narrative at the end of the day.

Cole Heilborn (35:28):

Yeah, gotcha.

Shelby Rossi (35:29):

Yeah.

Cole Heilborn (35:29):

Yeah, makes sense. You said this in one of our calls leading up to this idea that, what did you say? If brand voice isn't in the prototype stage, then you're already late,

Shelby Rossi (35:43):

You're already Oh yeah, you've lost the plot. Yeah.

Cole Heilborn (35:44):

Yeah. Tell me more about that and why does that matter?

Shelby Rossi (35:50):

Yeah, that's a great question. So I feel like a product manager does a great job of saying when they do a kickoff, like a product kickoff, or at least at Oakley, I should just say that when they have a product brief, they do an amazing job of here's the consumer, here's why kind of price point. You still have to include business numbers, sales numbers, all of that in that. But once that product is kicked off and it starts going through this product development process, I think it's easy for those teams to get disconnected to the end consumer because they're focused on how do I make this CAD perfect, or they have their own issues that I can't even speak authentically to because it's not my job, but they have their own set of problems and solutions that they have to work through to get it to the next product milestone.

(36:40):

And so I really feel like you can lose the plot if marketing's not involved because you don't have this kind of red thread or marketing glue at each step of like, oh yeah, and that makes sense for this consumer because of this. Not that I say an opinion. I mean, I state my opinion a lot, the team knows, but not that I state my opinion every milestone call, but sometimes I'll just say a little something to bring everyone back to the fact of, oh, that will be great for the story, or we could also highlight this in the copier, in our messaging. And it has helped remind each of those teams that aren't normally interfacing with marketing. So there's also a lot of newness on the r and d side of the brand of like, wow, this is new. Having a marketing person here, this is great.

(37:34):

Or Hey, I feel like in the beginning everyone was like, Hey, you guys actually missed these cool parts in that last product launch. I'm like, oh, you're totally right. We need to be more mindful of that. Or I love learning when an engineer has a little egg that they like to hide in a product, and sometimes you want those eggs to be discoverable by the consumer, it creates more of that relationship with that product, but so often those fun details are missed. And so I feel like again, you lose the plot and you lose that opportunity of a really strong narrative if you don't have marketing involved at every step because we're that it's almost like we're taking the last baton, but we're bringing it back. And just being that consistent glue, I guess, for everyone of like, oh, yeah, and this makes sense for the consumer, or, okay, that's a beautiful innovation or technology, how the heck do I put words to that to actually explain it to this consumer that has no time to learn our entire RD process?

(38:34):

And so it also was helpful because we get to talk back and forth between an engineer and a marketing person, which is so fun of a dialogue anyway of those two brains coming together of how do I explain this in a way that a consumer is going to understand? And even with water icon, I feel like I was at the lead engineer's desk weekly just being like, all right, so you did this technology or you did this innovation, what does that actually mean? And just sitting at his desk and walking through those problem statements, how could I say this in marketing verbiage. And I just feel like it helps so much to actually not just write fluff and say, this is just a cool new Oakley innovation, and actually show what that even means. It's just really possible when marketing is a part of those product milestones, and I feel like each company has a different name.

(39:29):

We call them L Gates. I mean, whenever a product gets kicked off to the next step of the development phase, marketing can be there. Even if you're not saying anything, you just learn so much about the product and the why and the problems that all these other teams are solving, that it really makes storytelling and your job so much easier, and you feel so good that you actually can make that impact as a marketer instead of just doing your normal, oh, this helmet's great. It has mips, so does every other helmet in the market. You know what I mean? Yeah. Anyway, I won't rant about that any longer, but I geek out about it, and it's a really cool opportunity for marketers to even be better at what they do.

Cole Heilborn (40:15):

So for brands or folks who are listening from brands where marketing and product are relatively siloed, that baton handoff is a very decisive point in the journey. What would you say to them or their leadership to maybe have them reconsider bringing marketing and product closer together?

Shelby Rossi (40:39):

Yeah.

Cole Heilborn (40:39):

Is there kind of one big idea you'd want to leave 'em with?

Shelby Rossi (40:43):

Ooh, I love that question because sometimes not everyone's comfy about that, and not that people are territorial in a negative way, but you definitely don't want some marketing person who thinks they know everything coming in and saying a comment that could derail a project or it's like, no, actually that's wrong. There's so many different beautiful brains that you do get to work with at a brand. And so I feel like to help with breaking down those silos, I would just suggest maybe trying with one product, it doesn't have to be a full range, because that's also a lot of time because I feel like this formula or this case study really makes sense when it's, again, more of this brand driver approach. When there is actual opportunity for innovation in real storytelling, I think it could still work for a commercial driver or energy driver.

(41:39):

But then again, that's a lot of meetings, that's a lot of, I know so many brands come out with handfuls of new products per season, so it's kind of like you need to identify as a brand or as a marketing team, what are those hero products that you want to bring to life and differentiate yourself from the rest. But I guess my suggestion would be maybe just trying with one product or working with leadership and the product team and saying, Hey, we'd really marketing to be more involved with this process just to learn more about your process, maybe pick up more problem statements. We really want to make sure that this product story comes to life in the best way. Can we try it with this new jacket because you guys are introducing a new material in this jacket, or can it be this? I know the eyewear team just did an amazing example of this with their retention redefined campaign that just happened where it came out with a new hyper grip technology.

(42:43):

So I think to help to not overwhelm all these other teams of like, oh, no, marketing wants to just get their nose and everything. I think it's the safest bet to just try with one product that there's something new about it or there is a lot of innovation going in behind it, or even just something smaller scale, I guess would be my first gut response and suggestion for other brands and businesses that want to try this formula of marketing at the beginning, because it is really uncomfy, I think, for some people. And then I think once this collaboration is felt of like, oh, this is only going to be positive for us of bringing this product story to life by having marketing in sooner, I think more and more people get used to it.

Cole Heilborn (43:35):

If you had to start to try and summarize some of the main takeaways in addition to the one you just shared,

Shelby Rossi (43:41):

For

Cole Heilborn (43:41):

Folks who are listening, what are some of those takeaways as we start to wrap up here?

Shelby Rossi (43:45):

Of course, man, I feel like as how I approach work or my ways of working, I always start with collaboration, but that's just how I have approached my job no matter where I am. But truly cross collaboration without sounding too cliche, only brings more brains into a situation, which for me brings more perspectives, more solutions, all of that. And so I really feel like the more you can cross collaborate with different functions and teams within your brand, the more storytelling and more credible perspectives that you can bring to light as a brand to then differentiate yourself. For me, in this example, just this case study that we're able to talk through with water icon, that type and level of cross-collaboration with the product development process. So all these other teams that I wasn't exposed to before really helped me as a marketer actually provide positive experiences for that end consumer. And so now when you think about it, and with all these products that we come out with as all these other brands, you're ultimately trying to help that consumer enjoy this sport, or you're trying to make sure that consumer stays safe, all of these things, there's definitely more of a meaningful connection to it as a professional, but also as a brand when you can be closer to all these other teams who are trying to do the same thing.

Cole Heilborn (45:23):

Yeah, fascinating. Shelby, is there anything else that you want to leave folks with before we sign off?

Shelby Rossi (45:28):

Man, I wish I could rant more about all the marketing fluff that we have to deal with as marketers, but I will say if there's a way that you can incorporate your marketing function or your marketing teams within the product development process sooner or really ideally at every step, it really gets rid of that problem of creating any type of fluff. I feel like personally, I get concerned, oh my gosh, are we just creating more fluff? It's this internal battle or challenge that I face all the time of like, am I contributing to this nonsense or not? Where I feel like this approach or case study of bringing marketing and brand throughout the product development process already eliminates that concern and that risk, but that also just comes from my feisty side where I just get so tired of the fluff and I just want to see real things happen for real people, for real reasons.

(46:27):

And I know not every project can be that. And that's also a struggle when you work for a big brand. Not everything can be this beautiful water icon project, but that still doesn't mean you can't bring marketing inside the process sooner. So that's probably the only thing I'd want to add is just less fluff, more cool stuff. It just keeps us all in the industry that we love so much longer by really doing or making real impact that makes real change in the world for the good or for the better, I should say. So yeah,

Cole Heilborn (46:59):

I think you just designed us a t-shirt, less fluff, more cool stuff.

Shelby Rossi (47:02):

Yeah, seriously. I just wish we joke still in the office all the time. Oh, I wish it could just be a water icon level project because you don't always get an open checkbook, right? That's also the reality and challenge is you don't always get unlimited r and d resources or unlimited marketing budget to go make this cool stuff. And so there's also a reality to this that not can be these brand hero moments and everything just lines up perfectly. But it's also just finding these moments and synergies in the day to day as marketers where you can still try and make that positive change.

Cole Heilborn (47:43):

Yeah. Yeah. Well said. Well, Shelby, thanks so much for taking the time to

Shelby Rossi (47:47):

Yeah,

Cole Heilborn (47:48):

Thank you

Shelby Rossi (47:48):

For having me. I love geeking out on this stuff.

Cole Heilborn (47:50):

Yeah, no, it is fascinating, and I think it's such a good reminder that because on this podcast we talk so much about marketing and creative, but the underlying assumption amongst all these conversations is that if your product isn't good, then nothing else, none of this stuff matters.

Shelby Rossi (48:07):

Yeah, exactly.

Cole Heilborn (48:08):

You could have the coolest, dopest, creative or documentary out there, but if your product is subpar, why even

Shelby Rossi (48:18):

Bother? Yeah. A consumer won't be connected to your brand anymore. They'll be like, this zipper sucks. It broke on me the first, whatever the example is. But yeah, I totally agree.

Cole Heilborn (48:26):

So it is cool to hear how you guys are combining product and brand and how that's influencing creative. And so yeah, honestly, it's refreshing to know that there's folks out there who are trying to do less fluff, create less fluff. Well, I hope you all are, but maybe that isn't always the case.

Shelby Rossi (48:41):

Sometimes there's things outside of your control where you have to make fluff and that

Cole Heilborn (48:46):

You just got to make the best of it.

Shelby Rossi (48:47):

Got to make the best of it. Yeah.

Cole Heilborn (48:49):

Shelby, if folks want to follow along with you, or if they want to follow up and have a further conversation, ask you more questions, where can they find you?

Shelby Rossi (48:57):

Yeah. What's so funny, it's always funny sharing this fact about myself as a marketer, but I don't have social media. Good for you.

(49:06):

I feel like there's so many amazing organic channels to find inspiration and follow trends and all of that outside of social that I am using. I use LinkedIn a lot. I use a lot of other formats and substack and just newsletters and all this stuff. But I feel like if anyone wants to chat more or geek out about marketing and product development, to definitely just find me on LinkedIn. And I'm always happy to just chat on a Zoom call and of course, just rant out of all people. I can fill time. Just give me the time and I'll fill it just by chatting. But yeah, LinkedIn's probably the best way and I'd be happy to chat and geek out more about this.

Cole Heilborn (49:45):

Awesome. Okay, Shelby, have a great rest of your day. Thank you.

Shelby Rossi (49:48):

Thanks so much, Cole. Appreciate it.

Cole Heilborn (49:49):

See you.

Shelby Rossi (49:50):

Bye.

Cole Heilborn (49:51):

Thank you for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please consider sharing it with a friend or leaving us a review on Apple. And remember, as you're working on that next piece of creative, the difference between creative that works and doesn't work often comes down to the hard questions that you ask while you're shaping it.

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