Cole Heilborn (00:00:00):

What piece of the value creation is connected to this idea of creatives being a commodity or not being a commodity?

Chris Whitten (00:00:08):

If I was a photographer, I would never want to think that I would want to give so much value to my clients beyond what they hired me for, that I'm not interchangeable or replaceable. It's not enough to just throw it on a site and then hope it all goes well. You have to really dial in your marketing systems to be top of mind. That's where I truly believe that creatives are not a commodity because there is so much like heart and soul poured out into what they do, but also at the same time, you can tell when it's not there. And so I just think just positioning yourself not to be a commodity.

Cole Heilborn (00:00:47):

On this podcast, we go behind the scenes with industry experts as they break down what it takes to produce creative work that works. If you're seeking insights from some of the sharpest minds of the industry, this is your guidebook to producing creative work that actually delivers. Welcome to the Backcountry Marketing Podcast. Today I'm sitting down with Chris Whitten. He is the senior production manager at Red Bull. Chris, welcome to the show.

Chris Whitten (00:01:09):

Awesome, man. Thanks so much for having me, Cole. Really appreciate it. Honored to be here with you, love your podcast and what you've been doing.

Cole Heilborn (00:01:17):

Thank you. I'm stoked to have you. I'm excited to jump into our conversation today on this podcast, we talk about a lot of things. Specifically we talk about marketing, we talk about creativity, we talk about producing creative, and more often though, it's focused on the brand side of things, like the actual creation of work and how it's received and trying to understand what are the bits and pieces that are required to produce good creative. On this episode, Chris, we're going to dive into kind of behind the scenes of the lessons and some of the insights and frameworks that you have. We're actually producing creative, specifically focusing though on working with contractors, working with photographers, filmmakers, production houses,

Chris Whitten (00:01:59):

And

Cole Heilborn (00:02:00):

Ultimately trying to build, because great creativity takes a good culture, it takes the right team, and you've got some really great ideas and things to share with the audience about how to foster a great culture and hiring the right people to go ahead and produce that creative. So we're going to work through a number of ideas and frameworks here that you have identified and things that you have learned and preach. And so we're going to kind of walk through 'em one by one.

Chris Whitten (00:02:29):

Preach is a fun, yeah,

Cole Heilborn (00:02:31):

Maybe that's the wrong word.

Chris Whitten (00:02:32):

No, I love it.

Cole Heilborn (00:02:33):

Love it. Before we jump in though, can you give us a little context and background as to who you are and

Chris Whitten (00:02:39):

Yeah, totally. I grew up in a small town, east Texas, and I remember far back I would always steal my mom's Polaroid, and so that's kind of how I introduced myself into this crazy business. And then ended up going to school out in Savannah, Georgia at Savannah College of Art and Design and majored in photography and moved back to Texas when I graduated to Dallas specifically. And that was kind of my entrance into commercial advertising. I forget where I was, but it was one day on set and called us a chip on my shoulder. Someone was like, yeah, I think I was asking somebody that worked at an agency if they thought I would be a good agency producer. And they were like, nah, the skills don't translate. And I was like, I don't think you're right. And so in 2018 joined up with Saatchi and Saatchi and on a six month contract and was producing some, I was kind of like a content creator and produced a lot of work for an automotive client that was a partnership of the Olympics.

(00:03:45):

And so got to do a lot of cool stuff. Ended up going to the Korea games in 2018. Shortly thereafter in 21 I got hired by the same company full-time Versace and and came in full-time as an art producer and did that for about three years. Loved the company, red Bull, kind of saw an opportunity and took it and been there five months. And so that's kind of a long-winded way of my career. But I've sat in every position on the production side from PA all the way up to producer. And so that's my, I've seen it all talking direct with clients and just being the fly on the wall, the assistant or the PA over in the corner filling people's coffee up. So yeah, that's a little snapshot.

Cole Heilborn (00:04:35):

Yeah. So why is this general topic of helping creative something that you care about? Yeah. Why is this something you like talking about?

Chris Whitten (00:04:43):

Yeah, I think for everyone and if they look at their career and how they got started, someone took a chance on, there was one point where you didn't have a portfolio or you didn't have, I remember going and visiting photographers fresh out of school and I would put my little portfolio I made in art school and it was trash looking back now, but it was like that's what I would show them to assist them. And they're like, we just want to see that you're a cool person. And so I had a mentor in Dallas that kind of took me under his wing. And so I just thought that why not do that for other people and just help as best we can. And I know that I'm put on this earth to help people in whatever capacity. And so it was kind of when I, to answer the question more is I was getting, when you're on agency side, you get a bunch of outreach from photographers and directors and 75% of it's bad and it's very nonchalant, oh, just let me know if you ever want to work with me. And I was like, I don't know you and I get a thousand of those emails a week. And so I was like, instead of being a grouch, which I can sometimes be, I'm like, what's some ways that I can just try to share information of helping people get better at this? So that's kind of what preempted it all.

Cole Heilborn (00:06:10):

Gotcha. So I think this kind of sets the stage for your first idea. You mentioned you get thousands of these emails a day and I got to assume a lot of people in branded positions or creative directors are in a similar, they experience something similar. There's a lot of people who reach out looking for work. My belief or I don't know if belief is too strong of a word, but my assumption would be that the perception is that creatives are commodities because there's how many photographers looking to shoot for X outdoor brands, right? But your first kind of idea here is that creatives are not commodities. Tell us more about that idea against the backdrop of what you just shared.

Chris Whitten (00:06:55):

It's a new concept to me that when we first talked, you was like, what are your thoughts on this? And so I really had to think about it. And I think some brands, smaller ones could see, oh, these are just, there's so many people out there that shoot or direct or whatever that it's like we can just interchange 'em, whatever. But if you niche down to what it is you're shooting for automotive for example, there's very few people that are really great at automotive and especially very few in the United States that live in the lower 48. And so it's not a commodity. And I think, and I'm trying to think mindset too is as if I was a photographer, I would never want to think that that I'm interchangeable. And so I would want to give so much value to my clients beyond what they hired me for, that I'm not interchangeable or replaceable. So what I bring to the table on set or post or pre, it's like I would never want to go anywhere else. I think a practical example is a car dealership of some brands. When you go buy them, it's a royal pain in the butt. You're there for four hours.

(00:08:27):

I don't want to name any brands, but we just bought a car and I was there for five hours and then we went to another dealership to buy my wife's car two weeks ago and it was like we drove the car, took 15 minutes, we were like, Hey, we're going to go home and think about it. They were like, cool, see you later. Where most car they would be like Stay, want to leave. And it just feels like this thing. They're like, oh, can we get you a coffee or a water to go kind of thing. And we were like, no, we're good. Came back and we did all the paperwork just over the phone and on DocuSign and then we came and got the keys and that was it. And so that's the type of service. One of my favorite books is Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guardia and he talks about just being unreasonable with your value and all the things you bring to the table and you can't IR replace that and that's not interchangeable. So that's kind of what I would say about that.

Cole Heilborn (00:09:40):

Do you feel like most creatives are providing that? I love that idea. Unreasonable hospitality. Do you feel like most creatives are providing that or is it just a select few and those are the ones who find themselves being irreplaceable?

Chris Whitten (00:09:55):

Yeah, and I think yes, I think it's also a learned thing of it's hard when this goes back to the team around you having an excellent producer or EP or someone on your team. That's why crew, as we know, that's why crews are structured the way they are. So the photographer or director can focus on that, just the creative and so that they have a team around them that's thinking of every little other thing that would bring the extra value to the client so that you keep getting hired over and over. And even if that producer or whatever is freelance, it only behooves them to make everything excellent and above par so that you do get hired again and again. And it is a learned trait. Some people have the innate ability just to the servanthood mentality, and that's really what I'm getting down to is we're just here to serve the client and the art of the creative as best we can.

(00:11:07):

And it comes with not just taking a great picture or a great moving image, it's above that. What's one thing that you could do on set that just is unforgettable? One example, a producer, we're sitting at lunch and it was a long shoot, it was like 15 days just on set and plus scout prep. Everything was like 25 total days that we were away from our families and it was just nonchalantly passed out. These postcards pre-stamped to everyone at the table, even the assistant, everybody. He's like, Hey, send this to someone you love. I was like, I'll never forget that because it just got to quickly, he was like, write it down, I'll mail him out. I just quickly wrote a note to my wife and then she got it. It was so cool. But that's the stuff that's like, oh, I'm going to remember that forever and that guy's forever going to, if I ever need him again, he's the first call.

Cole Heilborn (00:12:13):

So back to this idea of creatives are not commodities. Do you feel like that comes down to the mindset of the creative?

Chris Whitten (00:12:23):

Yeah, I do. And do you think question for you is in your experience, and I will say we can be cocky in this, like, well, I know how to do this, I'm the expert here, and so it's like, yeah, you should hire me. And so it's this cockiness that comes to set even or in the pitch and not this, and that's where it's like, oh, well I can get another guy that's just as talented that's not this cocky and doesn't have this attitude. Would you see that from your experience or

Cole Heilborn (00:13:05):

The attitude that can come along with it? For sure. I try not to work with those people because it's not fun, it's not a team sport because I think we put so much emphasis of our worth in our work that it inevitably attaches your ego to what you do. And if you're not careful, you can really let that, it can push you to a good point. It can push you past that point where it becomes this kind of toxic attitude. And I dunno, I hope that we don't come across that way when we work with folks. We try not to hire folks who are like that because it's just not fun. But I think it is definitely out there for sure.

Chris Whitten (00:13:52):

And so I just think just positioning yourself not to be a commodity and I think those things that we talked about will put you in that commodity category and in a sense just does a disservice to the creative field as a whole.

Cole Heilborn (00:14:11):

So I feel like one piece of the equation of this idea of creatives are not commodities is it comes down to the value that the creative is actually producing. And in a time when it seems like there's a lot of flux around the ROI and the value of the assets that we produce, it then maybe makes me question, well, are we all commodities because maybe AI will take all of our jobs one day. Who knows what piece of the value, value creation is connected to this idea of creatives being a commodity or not being a commodity?

Chris Whitten (00:14:47):

That's a great question and man, I think if you're unfamiliar, let's say you're sitting on the agency side and you're trying to hire for a specific lifestyle, shoot for a chip company or let's say ice tea company, I don't know why I changed it. And there's a lot of photographers that can shoot that, and so looking at the multitude of websites that you could go that house these or the websites, it's like, well, you could view that as a commodity, but I think understanding that as the creator, as the photographer, your work has to sit, you have to sit outside of your work because once you place it on these sites or on your site, it's up to someone else's interpretation. So how do you stand out as a photographer or director to not be viewed as that? And I'm still struggling with not struggling, I'm still just trying to understand that concept as well. It's like, but what can you do to level up how things are viewed? And I think it comes down to, it backs into probably something we're going to talk about a little bit later is it's not enough to just throw it on a site and then hope it all goes well. You have to really dial in your marketing systems to be top of mind. That's where I truly believe that creatives are not a commodity because there is so much heart and soul poured out into what they do,

(00:16:40):

But also at the same time, you can tell when it's not there.

Cole Heilborn (00:16:48):

Yeah. Gotcha. Tell me more about mindset and from the position of the creator, what role does mindset play in their ability to find work to succeed?

Chris Whitten (00:17:03):

Yeah, I think it plays like 98% of it.

Cole Heilborn (00:17:11):

Fascinating. Tell me more.

Chris Whitten (00:17:12):

Art is scary in that what we just talked about. You're putting your heart and soul out there and putting it on something and hope people like it. And one thing we learned in art school is not everyone's going to like it, and so we don't want to ever hear about that, but if you've been to art school or you're listening to this and you're in art school or whatever, you get ripped for stuff and it's to your face and it's by your peers and sometimes your friends and first it's a tough pill to swallow and then it hardens you for it just hardened you for the world because the is not everyone's going to like your stuff and that's okay. Some people will, some people won't. So that brings in fear, self-doubt, hesitation, all these things that compress us to not then marketing ourselves well.

(00:18:06):

And so if we get in our head about all these things, then it's going to just push it all down. And that's where some of the best photographers in the world, we don't even know about our directors. I say photographers a lot, just my field, even though I produce both, we don't know about because they're terrible at marketing, but I think that's the big holdback is in their head like, oh man, I don't want to do this. I'm just going to put it on this site and then I may put it on Instagram or LinkedIn or whatever and hope somebody sees it. So that is a lot of what I talk about is just mindset. Let's just do it, push it out there and let's just create a system, kind of a set it and forget it system to put work in front of people so that it's like all your fears and hesitation is right there and then you hit send and you post 30 days worth of content, whatever through a service, and then it's out and you're done and then you can go work on other things, bettering your craft, all the fun stuff.

Cole Heilborn (00:19:23):

How many photographers who, this is a really overly simplistic question. I say that because I feel like sometimes I overly simplify questions on this podcast and I'm trying to do a better job.

Speaker 3 (00:19:34):

No, I love it.

Cole Heilborn (00:19:35):

Adding a disclaimer of the photographers and the creatives out there who are struggling, how much of it do you think is rooted in mindset and the hesitation of getting stuck into your own head?

Chris Whitten (00:19:53):

I would say back to the 90 ish percent. It's like if you haven't got work in six months or 12 months or whatever, then I would just want to look at what your outreach has been, and if it's zero, then why? I don't want to bother this person. I don't want to, whatever. All the things that we start telling ourselves in our head that no one ever told you, call it putting your voice into the silence. Well, who told you that? Well, no one, I just thought it. I was like, okay, it's not true. Then the same amount of mindset we call it that it takes to tell you those negative things is the same amount that tell you the opposite. And so if we could just shift it, just whatever seems negative, shift it to positive and then do that thing, I think it just hangs a lot.

(00:20:51):

I mean, pretty much everybody I talk to is the same thing over and over. Well, I didn't want to bother. Oh, but all the excuses is, and if we're talking about outreach, let's just say we're talking about outreach specifically is the big bottleneck and I think it relates to mindset is like yesterday I'm in this massive project at work and I think I got three emails from people I've never met photographers, directors that are just introducing themselves and not to mention the way they word their emails is completely trash. It puts all the work on me and we can get to that later, but I just deleted them because I physically don't have time in the day. I was meetings every 30 minutes and I still haven't packed. And I was like, I hope they emailed back.

Speaker 3 (00:21:49):

Sure,

Chris Whitten (00:21:50):

I could have flagged it and come back to it and when I get back from this job, but it's just that, it's that type of thing when you're in an agency or you're in client side is like it's constant and it does not stop. Even when I'm at the office, if I'm not in a meeting, someone's coming by my desk to ask me a question. And so I think more photographers and directors should just know that of how busy we are. It's not that we don't want to talk to you as we don't have time. And so you got to frame your outreach in a way that's easy for us. IEA Calendly link in your signature. And that's just the mindset of like, oh, well, he didn't email me back. Well, how many times did you email him? Once I had a rep chase me for eight months and she finally freed up time and she would be like, Hey, sorry, just thought about this one thing that I saw that you did. Super cool. I was like, oh dang, I need to get back to Ashley. She's trying to get a

Cole Heilborn (00:23:03):

Meeting. You wouldn't consider that eight month follow up a bother?

Chris Whitten (00:23:06):

No, she was even a little, she's like, sorry, I've just been on you. And I was like, dude, no. It was so helpful. The A DHD that happens in most of our heads is I was just so thankful for that. I was like, dude, thank you. I've been so busy. And then the transition, it happened during the transition one time I was out in LA and she wanted to meet up and I couldn't make it happen. And so it's just this back and forth of, I mean, dude, even the first time we were supposed to record, I spaced because the calendar wasn't sinking and anyway, all the excuse in the world, but it was like, I'm just thankful for you to have the grace to be like, yeah, dude, no problem. I get it. What if you'd have been like, no, screw you, man. I was sitting there for an hour.

(00:24:01):

And so it's just like we're all humans. We all miss an email and half the time stuff goes into my spam and I try to check my spam and I have an other folder that it just gets classified in that things will randomly get put in. Most of our firewalls are crazy, and so if you're good, you just try to check everything. But yeah, I mean back to the mindset thing, those are all things that happen to us when you're on these agency and client side. And so the follow-ups are not crazy. A buddy of mine shout out Dalton Johnson, he said 18 months of just going after this one client, and finally the dude responded maybe out of just he finally wore him down. I think he would joke about that too, and then he ended up getting a job out of it.

Cole Heilborn (00:24:55):

I want to push back a little bit here on this idea. Okay. First off, I agree with a lot of what you're saying because I have felt that so many times of like,

(00:25:03):

Oh, if I've sent my third email, I don't want to send a fourth because clearly they don't want to talk or clearly they're busy, whatever. Sometimes I'll even have been following up, let me know if I'm being overly obnoxious. And most people are then like, oh no, you're good. And I'm like, okay, phew. I'm not being a nuisance. But back to this idea of being a commodity. If a photographer is following up with someone for two years, isn't that, if they are truly an expert at something and they aren't a commodity, shouldn't the client see that, recognize that? And if you're playing a follow-up game for two years, isn't that the definition of a commodity or is it really just being lost in the weeds of communication?

Chris Whitten (00:25:48):

I think it's being lost in the weeds.

Cole Heilborn (00:25:50):

Okay.

Chris Whitten (00:25:51):

Yeah. I don't know if I would define it as a commodity. I see what you're saying. And back to the part of being annoying. If someone finds it annoying, then do you want to work with that person if that's what's going to really get under their skin? It's like I'm trying to work with you. And it goes back to what you're saying in the outreach too, but I understand your point and I would politely disagree, but

Cole Heilborn (00:26:29):

No, that's great. I'm just curious

Chris Whitten (00:26:31):

From my perspective and being on both sides and now a client, it's like I'm thankful that people want to work with that I am employed by, it's just there's, and a lot of times it's like we don't have a stack of work that I'm like, oh yeah, Cole emailed. Let me just go through this stack. Here's a perfect one for Cole. It's like, Hey man, we don't have anything right now, but stay in touch and sure, sorry, I didn't ever respond and tell you that, but it's like there's projects that'll pop and be like, and the first person that's in my orbit, I'm going to reach out to

Cole Heilborn (00:27:16):

That

Chris Whitten (00:27:16):

Fits in it. And so if you're constantly just showing up, whether it's in a social algorithm or in an email, that's why I think not enough people do, and it's probably a played out word, but I think it's still a newsletter, some sort of outreach that's constant that doesn't feel like, Hey, can I get 15 minutes of your time is a lot better way. You still need those, call 'em hard outreaches and soft outreaches and then it kind of like, well, newsletter is kind of a commodity approach, but you just have to figure out a way to stay top of mind and using that same creativity that you put into your work to put it into your outreach and to be top of mind.

Cole Heilborn (00:28:21):

Let's talk about follow-up. You have talked a lot about follow-up. What are some best practices? What are some don'ts that you would recommend in?

Chris Whitten (00:28:33):

Yeah, I think I've only gotten this a few times, but people get upset and it's like, okay, yeah, now you just burn the bridge and some really good, I think the first emails always have a Calendly link or three day block that you're going to be available with windows of time so that I can just go in and pick something if I have to go, if you're like, Hey, let me know if you ever have time to sit down for a meeting or a coffee or whatever. And then it's like, that requires me to do work now, so now I'm working for you.

(00:29:18):

And a lot of it too is if you have a title I have at a company I have and you have a title, you have a director, I know why you're reaching out. So let's just scratch all that and then find some way to honor the person. Everyone has an ego. You want to stroke theirs, don't like, Hey, I have all these awards and I've done this and I've done that. Cool. Find a way to stroke the person's ego. Hey, saw the campaign you did with X was super cool. What was one of the hardest parts about getting to that location? Boom? Well, this one kid, he got me because he knew that I was in vehicle space and he said it was just a one sentence, when was the first time you knew you loved cars? And he took a shot, he made him be like, oh, I may not like them.

(00:30:17):

And it just brought me back to this moment that I was with my dad at a car show in Houston and we saw an Acura IEX for the first time on the turntable. And my dad goes, that's a sexy car, and I've never heard anyone describe a car as sexy. And this was like 1998. And I was like, that's when I was even more so as a kid. I was like, oh, cars are sick. And then I just was obsessed. And so I just told him that story and now we talk a lot and he's new to photo and production, but you can tell he is got a right hand. So I just mentor him whenever I can. So those are just questions about what was hard about this production or something to get them to talk and not like, Hey, can't wait to get on the phone so I can talk to you about me. Because the old saying is the more I talk to someone, the more I like them or however you say it. And so those are just some quick follow-up ways and just even initial outreach, like the cold outreach, that would be, I would open those emails and probably respond,

Cole Heilborn (00:31:28):

But you're advising folks. If I'm as a director, if I reached out to you, you would recommend me completely avoiding the sentence where I'm like, Hey, I would love to work with you because you already know that intention.

Chris Whitten (00:31:41):

Yeah, I don't think you want anything else from me. Just the roles we're in and I would put money on the response rate would be different.

Cole Heilborn (00:31:58):

So what are some other types of language that you would recommend people use in follow-ups or cold outreaches?

Chris Whitten (00:32:09):

Yeah, that's a big one. The calendar's a huge thing. Don't feel like that you're making that person work to get a meeting. Some language would be like if you want a meet in-person meeting and give this big block of time. I had a photographer I was talking to and she lived two hours outside of Seattle and one of this client that she wanted to meet up with was in Seattle, and I was like, give her a week that you're going to be in Seattle and this week is wide open for you to go meet coffee with her. And she's like, but I don't live in Seattle. I was like, but the day she picked, you're going to be in Seattle. And so she ended up booking a meeting just because she just made herself available. And so that's not necessarily language, it's like strategy. Find a way to honor that person, whether it's work or something. Being at Saatchi, Saatchi has a big client base. I only worked on a vehicle brand, so it was hard for somebody if they didn't really know or didn't do a ton of research, they could mention a brand that I wasn't on, but I still was like, doesn't matter, they tried. It's hard to sometimes know exactly if I only touch one brand or if I'm on multiple brands, stuff like that.

(00:33:42):

I think even I don't view this as creepy, some other people may, but LinkedIn or whatever, find out what college they went to and just find a tidbit of, oh, I saw that Michigan beat, blah, blah blah in football this week. It must've been fun to watch. And you don't even have to have a call to action, just be like, and then you can and the bot like, Hey, I'm a photographer based in Dallas. Love the work you guys are producing.

Cole Heilborn (00:34:10):

So in a cold outreach, in an ideal world, what's the outcome? What are you hoping for from a cold outreach? If someone reach out and it's personalized and it comes across well, what do you do with that? Are you like, oh, let's get together and meet? Is it like, let me just put your name on file. What should the goal of the creative be in a cold outreach? What is the CTA for them?

Chris Whitten (00:34:41):

Get a meeting

(00:34:43):

And it may take a while, but it's like first and foremost, make it so easy for me to book a meeting. It's impossible to say no. Once I do now, there are those instances where it may take six, seven weeks, couple months because of the busyness next week. I'm not checking any of those emails because I'm just going to be locked in on the project, but a hundred percent get a meeting because the next part of it is do you have that good attitude? Are you cool? Are you not cocky? All the things of like, okay, we're going to commit to being on set together even if it's for a day or 10 days. It's like, are you somebody that I want to hang out with so I want to meet the people, work has to check the box.

(00:35:30):

I used to get a lot when I was on the vehicles only, I used to get photographers, and this is kind of what spool spurred on this stuff is like no one's researching. It would take someone about 20 minutes if they plugged my name into any of the socials to see that I only worked on cars. And I would get hit up by architecture photographers and lifestyle photographers and be like, we'd love to work together. And I'm like, how? And so I could have responded, but a lot of times I would be like, Hey, this is what I do.

(00:36:10):

Can I rewrite your, can I rewrite your outreach email for you? Half people would get pissed, no, I don't need your help. And half of them would be like, yeah, I would love that. And so I would just rewrite it. This is what I would've said to me, this is how I would respond, try this next time. And then half those people would just ghost. Then they would get what I gave them and then all they had to do was just send it back. That sounds kind of trite, but it's like then we was like, okay, I know being in the business as long as you have people that may need a lifestyle photographer or our other brands or anything else. And so those are little things. Get a meeting for sure. I was looking over here, I have a whole email. I wrote a bunch of cold emails that I would open. Let's see. Yeah, honor the project, love the View, visual whatever light somehow. And then it's like, Hey, I'm a photographer based in X, I work with these clients. I would love 15 minutes of your time. Here's a Calendly link. Just so simple.

Cole Heilborn (00:37:22):

So they book the meeting, it goes well, you're like, all right, this person's cool. And if you don't have a project on deck, then what is it? Just all about the follow-up and staying top of mind for that person?

Chris Whitten (00:37:35):

Yeah, I would say for that in the call, it's like you're trying to find tidbits of knowledge, what they're into. It's like most people that are really proud, especially creatives or people at agencies, they have a backdrop of stuff and it's usually guitars or they're wearing a certain hat or then you can see what they're into and then okay, dial in on that. And so I tell this story when I was assistant, one of the photographers I worked with really wanted to get Gatorade as a client, and there was a certain agency here in Dallas that had Gatorade. And so I think how it went is we got a job with them and it was a small job, maybe shooting product or something, but we're like a lifestyle studio. And so the photographer was like, Chris, I want you to flex your muscle kind of EP muscle and I want you to court this guy, the creative director of Gatorade. And I was like, sure, what's, find something he's into and every few weeks just send him something about it. I was like, cool

(00:38:54):

On set. I remember him saying, and he was wearing a bass pro hat or something, and this was back in 2006, and he found out he's really into bass fishing. So every couple of weeks I would just send him in an article or Hey, I saw that so-and-so won, like blah, blah, blah, X lake bass fishing. And it started this relationship where we would just email back and forth about bass fishing, which I mean, I grew up fishing as a kid, but not like that, not level. And then if I would travel somewhere, I would and happened to be in a lure shop. I don't know why would I be in a lure shop traveling or see something that's fishing related? I would get it $10 here, five, whatever. And then I would send it to him, Hey man, saw this. I don't know if this is a good lure or not, but thought of you.

(00:39:43):

And so then it's these little touches and probably that thing sits on his desk and it's not something with our brand on it, it's just a lure or whatever. And so now I'm always top of mind, the dude can't help but think of us because we're always doing just these little touches that has nothing to do with, Hey, man, here's something we did for Lipton Iced tea kind of relates to Gatorade. And he's like, I already know that you guys can do good work. I've hired you before, and that's post cold. But those are the, once you get the initial meeting, find something in that meeting. Some people always have guitars behind them. Oh, you're into guitars. Or this one guy had a Porsche poster behind him was like, oh, you're into, so then it's just like that's the thing you can kind of latch onto and just like every now and then, boom, or if they are the end F1 or the end, whatever it is, I think you get the idea. It's like that's the follow-ups and sure, seed work along the way, really proud of this new project we just did for X thought you'd enjoy it, but that's after you've created this rapport of because much more.

(00:41:05):

It works a lot. And sometimes the last thing I want to do is talk about a project that I'm on. So if you can be someone's release to talk about what they're actually into, it helps, I promise.

Cole Heilborn (00:41:25):

Interesting. So I've often heard that this is from coaches or the internet, I don't even know who specifically, but the idea that if you don't speak the intention of like, oh, I am actively looking for work because I have availability, then folks don't know that. And then how can they, I mean, sure, they could be like, oh, so-and-so popped into my inbox. Oh, look, I have a great project. Let me just see if they're interested. But there's something, would you agree that sometimes you need to put a hard sell out there and be like, Hey, I've got some availability amidst all of the airdropping of fishing lures?

Chris Whitten (00:42:10):

Yeah, I mean I would say it's like, but then maybe come with an idea, got some availability. I thought about blah, blah, blah, creative something, because some of it to me sounds desperate. I like working with the people that are just hard to get sometimes.

Cole Heilborn (00:42:41):

But

Chris Whitten (00:42:41):

Yeah, I would push back a little bit. But yeah, I think you can state the intention in that first, I'm a photographer based in X City, or I work with these type of clients that fit your niche, whatever. I had love to keep in your circle because it goes back to what I said, it's like I know what this dance is, so how can you do it differently? Saying that, I think it'd be, I might do this is take all of the cold outreach I've ever gotten and put into chat GBT, and hey, what is the differences in these? And it would probably be like, there's nothing or which ones stand out to you? And then I would be interested to see analytically what it would say because they all read the same to me.

Cole Heilborn (00:43:46):

So this kind of dovetails to another comment. I've heard you make the phrase, we'd love to work with you.

Chris Whitten (00:43:53):

I hate it.

Cole Heilborn (00:43:54):

So tell me more. And what's an alternative?

Chris Whitten (00:44:00):

It feels so passive, but in some of it it's necessary too, but it's like I know that you would love to work with me, and that sounds super cocky, but it's like, yeah, I got it. So I think you could be, just don't even say it at all if you'd be open to a short call. Here's my calendar. Yeah, I mean I love to work with you. To me ultimately feels like this just passive boop, I'm just going to toss the ball over the fence, and if you ever think about me again, then I'd love it. It's like, I'm not going to think about you again. 50 other emails and people try to get my attention right after I read your email. And so I think alternatives that you could say is just not say it at all. And you could say, I would love to get coffee with you, or I would love to buy you lunch, or I would love to get 15 minutes of your time and so I can get to know you better or introduce myself and hear about what you're working on. And so those are just alternatives and then saying, I'd love to work together.

(00:45:21):

I think because we're kind of trained to do that, and from dating it's like, I'd love to take you to coffee. It's a little different, but in this context it's very defined to me going back to I know why you're here, why I'm here. We want to create something together, we just have to create a relationship first.

Cole Heilborn (00:45:47):

Gotcha. Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about positioning and niching down. Earlier you had mentioned niching down into a particular industry like automotive. Are you more of a fan? It's easier to identify vertical positioning. How do you feel about horizontal positioning,

Chris Whitten (00:46:10):

Having a big body of work across product to

Cole Heilborn (00:46:16):

Lifestyle,

Chris Whitten (00:46:17):

Automotive,

Cole Heilborn (00:46:18):

And maybe my niche is I'm really good at eliciting and happy emotions, but I can do that across dogs and giraffes and people.

Chris Whitten (00:46:31):

I don't mind it. I think sometimes when you look at people's websites, it's like, whoa, what do you shoot? And so it's refining the portfolio so that a website should be a snapshot of what you could create. So I think it's good to be, I think I used the example of cars because hard, and so I think if you're going to shoot cars, it takes a lot of focus, shooting a moving mirror basically. And so understanding lighting reflection more so than any other thing, maybe like jewelry, but jewelry's a little easier in my opinion. I know some photographers and directors would be like, dude, not a chance. But it's usually in a studio setting where you're controlling all of the light cars. You're dealing with natural and artificial. I don't mind it when we see a photographer or director that has still life product, stuff like that, and then all the way to lifestyle. If I was doing that more of that, I used to, I'm like, I would want to hire that person. I don't have to hire two people to go out and shoot the product in studio plus the lifestyle portion of it.

(00:47:48):

So what's the saying? Niches get riches?

Cole Heilborn (00:47:51):

Yeah,

Chris Whitten (00:47:52):

Something like that. Sure. I think when it boils down to if you're coaching a specific topic or stuff like that, but for photo video, it's like it does help to be really, really great at one thing and only go out for that thing, but it may cut you out of opportunity. Don't try to be any and all things to all people just because you want it for the money. We can feel that. And so just do what makes you happy in a sense. And if you're like, everything makes me happy, then show it off.

Cole Heilborn (00:48:29):

When it comes to positioning, how deep is too deep and what is deep enough in terms of how narrow of a focus do you aim for?

Chris Whitten (00:48:38):

Are we specifically talking portfolio?

Cole Heilborn (00:48:41):

What other way would you,

Chris Whitten (00:48:42):

Yeah, I don't know.

Cole Heilborn (00:48:43):

Okay. Yeah, your body of work,

Chris Whitten (00:48:49):

You're like, what are you talking about? And yeah, I think, I'm trying to think of examples. I mean, we've all been on websites where it's just is so much running and then it's like I finally get to climbing and then I may get to, oh, there's running again. It's get your three best on your overview page and sure, if I want to then dive in specifically to a niche, then I can, but I love sites that are simple, clean, don't have a lot of words if we're specifically talking about photography or directing to, but it's just a little different style of sight. Just get your best of the stuff that you love across the page, and so that, okay, it takes about five seconds scroll. It's like, okay, they got it, light's good, eye's good, all the things they have style, whatever it is, whatever it is you're looking for. And then it's like, okay, I'm looking for specifically X, then I'm going to click in and dig into other things of let's running, keep coming back to running, going on a run later. So then just going to dig into that stuff and it's like, okay, how are we framing things? Choose this, that, and the third I form use of models can tell when you didn't hire a professional runner, all those things.

Cole Heilborn (00:50:21):

Let's talk about money. How do you recommend folks talk about money, talk budgets, navigate through the proposal or bidding process, whatever that might look like depending on the project.

Chris Whitten (00:50:34):

Bidding is interesting a hundred percent of the time. If you're on client agency side, and I'm the one needing the bid, I know the budget. My process is I don't ever share the budget unless it's like, I need to get this answer now and I need you to be in this number. I'm going to share it with you right up front and just so it's like there's no super back and forth, but if it's a triple bid and it's like I want to get people's bids, they're going to go high. I want to get people's bids and then we're going to dial it back, then I'll start sharing like, okay, we need to be here across this stuff like this. I don't believe that. And this is smaller brands. If you like, Hey, we want you to shoot this thing outdoor lifestyle brand, and we have these specific shots. They give you the shot list, they give you the creative, and then you come back with a number and you ask for a budget, they don't give it to you, and then you hit 'em back with your estimate and it's like 20 grand over what they're expecting and they ghost you. It's like, that's not cool.

(00:51:51):

You didn't give me any. And then they just assume you're expensive and you can't work together. It's like, Hey, there's always room here, but I just gave you the most perfect world scenario. It's like, again, when you're buying a car, you can either buy a Toyota or a Lexus, both get you from point A to point B. One's got a lot more bells and whistles and it looks a lot better. Just kidding. They both look great. And if you want to give, we could bounce some more specific questions and I could dive

Cole Heilborn (00:52:25):

In. Sure, yeah. You bring up the classic, what's your budget, what's your rate question chicken or the Western shootout meme that pops up on every photographer forum? I mean, I understand from the client side why you would be hesitant to share the budget because you're trying to find the right fit and part of that right fit is the right budget, right? So let's say you're looking at three different bids. Two of them are similarly priced, but they're average photographers or directors, but then one of them is twice your budget, but they're excellent is how much of the decision always comes down to budget in terms of who do we pick?

Chris Whitten (00:53:16):

For me, it never does, if somebody's twice the budget, it's like you'll have just an honest conversation with the EP or the rep or whoever is like, Hey, we're here. You guys are here. What can you do? And a hundred percent think you're worth it. It's just like this is the reality of the project Jack. We want to work with you. And so then it's just a little bit of give and take. And a lot of times it's like this is the lowest we can go, or else we feel like we're sacrificing the quality. And so then it's like, okay, then I got to go back to bosses and clients and be like, all right, we feel this one's the best and we just make a case for it. And this is on bigger clients too. And so that's why I would be after round two, round three as much as possible is I want all three bidders to be in the same stratosphere of costs that way it's just a creative boxing match, and that is the only thing.

Cole Heilborn (00:54:33):

Yeah, makes sense. We've talked about a lot. If you had to start to wrap things up and summarize some of the advice you have for all the creatives out there, what does it come down to?

Chris Whitten (00:54:47):

First things first is get out of your own head and just ship the work that book that I think a lot of us have read and get in front of people as much as you can. Don't be afraid to. The follow-ups are key. And that's the big takeaway from a lot of this is just be in the room as much as you can. And if there's the cycle of not busy, freaking out, busy, don't care about reaching out, not busy, freaking out, and then that's felt. So figure out some sort of system that you can make so that your outreach is constant. There's so many tools now that you can auto like all the things, and that's outside of ai if you're anti ai, that you can stay present online in other ways just to stay in people's orbit. Because the biggest thing is we're slammed. And it's hard sometimes is like got the office yesterday at seven, didn't leave till seven, and I'm not asking for sympathy. It's just like, that's just the reality of when you're in these companies and especially the big ones that everyone wants to work with. And so how do you separate yourself? How do you stay constant and present?

(00:56:13):

One thing we didn't talk about is your work doesn't speak for itself. It gets you in the room. It gets you in places where your dreams can imagine, but if I never see it, how it just doesn't matter. Yeah, it doesn't matter. And so that's just the big thing to me is consistently show up.

Cole Heilborn (00:56:49):

I think there's a lot of things in here that you've shared that people can probably identify in their own business and their own practices that maybe they are already doing or they could start doing or tweak. It's funny, and I think it's probably worth reiterating the fact that you said most people get stuck in their heads. And if you've seen that across however many hundreds or thousands of creatives, it's probably true for like you said, 98% of everyone out there. Maybe that's one thing to add is get out of your head however you can.

Chris Whitten (00:57:26):

Yeah, I mean, I'm guilty of it. It took me challenging myself, and that's one thing that works for me is I'm just going to challenge myself to do this thing. And so it was like posting 90 days straight on LinkedIn and excluding Saturday and Sunday, and if no one resonates with what I feel like I need to talk about, then I'll just stop. And it's been a little bit of the opposite. And so yeah, the work doesn't, the work, what I post about doesn't land with everyone. And I think if you read something that I write and you're like, yeah, but it's like, okay, you take a step back and I am only putting out stuff to help people. And so if you want to try to find the negative in it, it's like, okay, chill out.

(00:58:23):

I'm not right, and I'm not writing to be right. I'm writing to hopefully help somebody, even if it's just one person because this industry is crazy. It's cutthroat. It's all the things that as much as a professional's athlete, it's like it'll spit you up and chew you out one day you're on top, the next you're at the bottom. And I think just navigating what that looks like, and a big thing is you got to have your business set. I saw this post the other day that this almost shut down the business because the six month is no work. It's like, well, why is your business set up on a six month turn? You got to be able to navigate some big drops over-leverage yourself. That may be a podcast too.

Cole Heilborn (00:59:22):

Yeah, that gets into the weeds of financial advice and how to Yeah. But a good note nevertheless. Chris, if folks want to connect with you and well, if they want to send you a cold pitch, if they want to learn more, where do you recommend they find you?

Chris Whitten (00:59:41):

I think the best place right now is on LinkedIn. It's just Christopher Whitten on LinkedIn. Easy search my face with the blue background. Yeah, hit me up. I try to respond to everything I, there'll be Lowell's where I don't, but I try to get back to everybody and love hearing from people. Even if your message sucks, I'll still respond. I may try to help you fix it.

Cole Heilborn (01:00:10):

Chris might rewrite your cold

Chris Whitten (01:00:12):

Pitch. Yeah, don't be offended.

Cole Heilborn (01:00:15):

Well, Chris, thanks again for joining us. Thanks for joining us on the eve of a big project you're shooting here next week. Of course. I wish you guys the best. I hope you guys get some sleep and everyone stays healthy.

Chris Whitten (01:00:28):

Thanks so much, Cole. Appreciate it.

Cole Heilborn (01:00:30):

Alright, take care. Alright, bye. Thank you for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please consider sharing it with a friend or leaving us a review on Apple. And remember, as you're working on that next piece of creative, the difference between creative that works and doesn't work often comes down to the hard questions that you ask while you're shaping it.

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