Cole Heilborn (00:00)

Thank you for attending the first episode here in the podcast studio. My name is Cole Heilborn. I run the Backcountry Marketing Podcast. I also run a creative agency called Portside. today I'm sitting down with Richard Glennie. he's the managing director of Woven Communications, where he advises brands at the intersections of sport, fashion, and the outdoors. Um he's worked across majority of large brands, Nike, Adidas, Rebok.

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And he's led global brand campaigns with multiple of those entities. Today we're going to be discussing a topic titled The Future of Marketing in the Post Social Landscape. I don't know that we'll figure it out in this 45-minute session, but I'm excited to have this conversation. And hopefully we can all walk away with some insights uh from your experience, Richard. So thank you for being here. um At the end, if we have a little bit of time and if there are a couple questions, we'll reserve a

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two or three minutes for a quick QA. So um I'll I'll bring that up at the end of the conversation today. Um Richard, can you kind of kick us off? Why is this a topic we should even be discussing and thinking about? And let's start there.

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Richard Glennie (01:13)

Marketing is constantly evolving. think some of the tech disruptions that's been happening over the last 24, 18 months or so has really accelerated the media fragmentation. uh And I think from a brand and a consumer perspective, I think that storytelling

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and gaining attention has become in simple terms a lot harder. um I think from a brand perspective, the strategy or strategies that are implemented. um

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really obviously need to be based on the marketing fundamentals, so consumer centricity and emotional storytelling and those sort of fundamentals. But I would say how you reach and engage consumers uh is changing.

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Cole Heilborn (02:25)

Let's start by defining a quick term here, post-social. Um what does that mean? There's multiple adjectives to describe I think what we're talking about here. How do you define that?

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Richard Glennie (02:36)

Well, I think um to me social media is no longer social. um I would say I think around about 2022 uh global social media topped out in terms of self-expression and so you see that consumers have really gone...

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towards dark social, so channels such as WhatsApp, Discord, Substack, engaging more in real life experiences and that, um it's almost like you have a public garden and a private garden in terms of that delineation between social now and I think... um

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The challenge for brands is really how do we cut through, how do we add value to the communities they're targeting, the consumers um in an age of information fatigue and in some cases, slot content.

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Cole Heilborn (03:45)

I

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like the way you said that a public garden versus a private garden. I think maybe one piece I'd add to the change in that public garden is the change in algorithmic uh how how content is fed to people. Right. If you post something and we're friends, it's chances are I won't see that. Whereas I might see something from a brand that I follow because uh I engage with that content and it it's tailored for me. Can you speak to that change, the difference in um algorithmic driven feeds and what that means

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Yeah.

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Richard Glennie (04:20)

I mean I think

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in simple terms it's less about reach and more around relevance. So the algorithm is as we all know and experiences has basically made social feeds more about entertainment ah and personalizing content based on what it thinks your interests are. So for me I tend to get lots of content around Will Ferrell and vintage sports cars and

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sneakers um which you know I like to think I have more than that but that in a sort of light-hearted way is a good example of it but um you know from a brand point of view the challenge in this fragmented landscape is how do you cut through and how do you um tell stories that matter to your target consumer segments.

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Cole Heilborn (05:18)

So you how long have you been in the marketing industry?

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Richard Glennie (05:23)

Gosh, longer than I care to really share with everyone publicly, I... Over 20 years, basically.

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Cole Heilborn (05:33)

So in those twenty years, uh I'm curious if you can just compare and contrast what was it like twenty years ago trying to build a brand and and be relevant for an audience versus today? Uh what has remained the same and what has changed?

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Richard Glennie (05:48)

Well, think obviously the digital landscape and the social media ah side of things has accelerated, so that tech disruption is the biggest difference.

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ah But I think the fundamentals of marketing uh remain the same, but I think social media in particular, and what we're talking about, one of the core topics of today, is such a big part of it now. um

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But my point of view is that, as I sort of mentioned earlier, it's less about self-expression now. I think there was, I read something that, um I think it's a GWI report with the Financial Times basically saying that self-expression. ah

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is around 40 % less and this is a 2025 report in terms of social media. So the platforms are trying to evolve and keep audiences and brands engaged because obviously that's what they need to do from a business perspective. I think one of the results of that is humans are still looking for... um

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storytelling, they're looking for authenticity, they uh will engage with platforms or communities or influencers that they trust and so um and in that... um

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in that context I'm seeing and hearing of a little bit of a backlash to some of the AI generated content. We're obviously sitting here in Europe and there's some legislation that's coming to bear that I think for brands and agencies will be important to adhere to to make sure that they're flagging that their content has an AI generated component. That's going to be important for consumers to

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you know, to trust the brands. So I think there's, you know, we're in a massive period at the moment, the last two, three years of disruption. But conversely, I would also say that, um you know, it brings about a lot of opportunity as well. And I think as we were saying before the podcast, cold marketing is constantly evolving. So um

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So it's an exciting time to be in this space.

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Cole Heilborn (08:28)

You mentioned something and I want to come back to it because it it was a brief very brief point you made, but I think there's a lot more we can unpack there. You you know, you brought up the difference between 20 years ago versus today is obviously it's the digital, it's the social component. How does that change how we have to think about the campaigns that we've traditionally built?

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Richard Glennie (08:46)

Well I think it's, you know, in the end I tend to go back to, as I say, what I call the marketing fundamentals and you think about your consumer journey and I think in recent years, you know, there's been a lot of research or curation in if you're going to buy a pair of running shoes or a piece of kit or a new laptop or whatever.

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A lot of that research is obviously done online and I think obviously the impact of AI now in disrupting let's say Google search is something that brands need to look at. um

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So again, another sound bite that resonated with me is like AI is effectively becoming like a digital bartender. So it's going to serve up ah or make a pre-selection for, you know, if you're looking for a new pair of running shoes or other relevant kit or whatever that purchases. um But if you go back 20 years ago, I think um to today, I think...

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Some of the changes I've observed are, you know, I think that the algorithm is kind of flattened taste. And so there's, you see a lot more of people dressing the same. uh Retailers are serving up similar looks and so forth. I think that there's no longer a

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cool factor if you think about things like sneaker culture, there's less of a cool factor in discovery, so being the first to find out something because then that gets published almost instantaneously and then other people find out. um So I think there's a lot of things that have changed because of digital evolution really.

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Cole Heilborn (10:51)

The one thing that I feel like has changed the most is that the audience is in control and they determine what quality is. Right. you know, I think about the traditional kind of brand campaign format, it was this very rigid, very controlled process from the top down. Yeah. Um Nike is such a great example of this. but today the audience determines what quality is and what is good and because we live in this algorithmic driven feed world, yeah. Um

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just because you make something doesn't mean it's actually gonna travel organically. Obviously paid is a whole nother factor. Um can you speak to or just I'm curious to hear your thoughts on uh designing campaigns but but considering it from the audience's point of view and asking the question, will this travel, will this resonate organically?

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Richard Glennie (11:41)

Yeah, think all resonating organically, um I think there's even 20 years ago today there's a kind of consistent thread I'd say which is, you know, storytelling or uh emotional engagement from an audience or a consumer. um So that hasn't changed as a, let's say, a broad principle. um

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I think that um when you think about organic content, also, on the other hand, have to think about paid content. But I think that when we talk about social and digital media in particular, um there does seem to be a bit of a...

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a reaction against the paid media. I think, as I sort of said, for me, when you're storytelling, you really need to think about relevance and you really need to think. I I started in PR uh over 20 years ago, um working for Hill and Nolton in London. And at the time, you used to have to pitch your stories to journalists, sometimes over the phone or, you know. And the question you'd always have to ask yourself is,

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so what you know Adidas or Jilayah or whomever were our clients at the time are doing this but why should the journalists care about it and and and therefore in turn why should their their readers care about it and so I think that discipline still holds true m but I think

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what we're seeing is that shift away from, yeah, I remember having a conversation with a former colleague and...

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around the sort of paid organic conversation. He used a phrase which was, you know, content's going to become industrialized and, you know, you also work in an agency, you sometimes get brands just asking for more and more deliverables because they're thinking about reach and impressions. You know, maybe that's only once a certain part of the consumer journey. So you really need to think end to end, understand your consumers and I think

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You know, I joined Nike in 2014 um and there was a maxim at the time. I'm sure it's still the same is the consumer decides. So um I think that still holds true. But it's just really the craft of storytelling and the craft of brand campaigns and making it work.

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across all the channels is, you know, it's not the same as two, three years ago or five years ago or ten years ago. And that's okay, because that's, it would kind of be boring if it was the same. But there are principles that fundamentals that still apply, in my opinion. I think

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Cole Heilborn (14:48)

And one of those is relevance.

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Richard Glennie (14:50)

relevance, yeah, perennial really.

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Cole Heilborn (14:56)

How do you know when you're when you have or have achieved relevance? Is it a gut feeling? Is it a is it a set of questions that you ask yourself and you check off?

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Richard Glennie (15:05)

I think it kind of depends on what the brief is. So if you're launching a new product or an innovation or you're trying to unpack a brand point of view or if you're trying to dimensionalize some athlete storytelling. think, you know...

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But having said that, think there are ways that you know, there's a gut feeling. I think there's a sort of art and science to brand marketing and storytelling that still holds true. you know, part of it might be something that you're passionate about and you might be close to a certain community. um

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I used to find that talking to media and influencers was a very useful way to give me a steer when I was brand side because you tend to exist in a little bit of a bubble and you have a kind of internal perspective on something. And obviously, you can do A-B testing, you can do all these sort of things, but I think the...

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ah I've always found that conversations with media or influencers are uh a very valid way of giving you a steer on something that's reasonably neutral, you know.

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Cole Heilborn (16:32)

So it's really easy to look at the Nikes of the world and um appreciate what they've been able to pull off. They're also the Nikes of the world. And most outdoor brands don't find themselves in that position. Right. Um if you were advising and working with, let's say, you know, in between stages one to two, not quite startup brand, how how would you approach brand building with them, considering

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everything we talked about today, like the the the you know the idea that the traditional brand campaign format has changed. Yes. How would you advise them? Where would you want to start? What questions would you ask them?

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Richard Glennie (17:12)

Well I think, you know, again it's when you're an agency or external advisor there's obviously a certain remit that you have so you you kind of try and interrogate or um build around the brief that you've got. It's ideal if you're solving a problem whether that's a business or it's a perception problem or something like that rather than just you know hey look we need a new campaign for this

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product and again I think you know um listening to the consumer, understanding the competitor landscape, really knowing your industry there's no substitute for those components and just really being obsessed and passionate about what you're doing and helps you get to hopefully add value but I think you know for smaller brands and you know we certainly do that as well. oh

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or start-ups, know, there's one app that we've been working with, for example, and one of the things, you know, they've got beautiful visual language, really interesting collabs, really start to get some traction. But one thing we were, I was talking about with the founder is, you really need to kind of unpack.

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the proof of concept, so showing how the app makes you better in the service that you're providing. And so that was something that uh was quite fundamental that you look at. It's almost like a business as well as a brand uh role that you're playing there. So I think it's... uh

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it's getting granular with your client or your customers ah to understand how you can solve that problem and understand their go-to-market process and trying to define in clear terms what success looks like for them.

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And we were also talking, Cole, as two sort of small agency founders that...

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Even when I was client-side, I was a big believer in the value of external agencies because I felt like they will challenge your thinking, your point of view, and maybe bring in some additional um perspective that you might not have within your internal team. So I think that's an important role that an agency can play, and it also helps if they're, in my view, independent.

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Cole Heilborn (20:05)

What are some brands in the industry that you're looking at as someone who understands this this post-social world and i is kind of figuring that out or is trying to figure that out?

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Richard Glennie (20:18)

um Well I think at the sort of high level global level I think um it was interesting for me to look at the World Cup campaigns for Adidas and Nike. Nike had a more post-social approach to their World Cup spot. um Very sort of...

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memeified, very um designed for Gen Z and making it

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Cole Heilborn (20:51)

Can you share a little

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more about what the campaign was just for context as you're explaining it?

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Richard Glennie (20:54)

So uh basically Adidas and Nike, as they line up for the World Cup, there's a little bit of a battle between these two brands for share of voice and for attention around this global sports moment. Adidas went with... um

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a spot starring Timothée Chalamet. It had a really nice sort past and present storytelling structure, but it's set in New York.

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and it had a sort of beginning, middle and an end for a, I think it was like a five minute spot, so it was a long piece of storytelling. Nike on the other hand, it had probably more athletes. There was, you know, one of my favorite pieces was a Cristiano Ronaldo and Lebron segment. There was, you know, a Harland vignette, so it was almost like pieces of...

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individual athlete content spliced together. I mean that's I'm probably doing it at disservice. So that I think kind of reflected two different storytelling approaches at a high level I think.

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I'm quite obsessed by the running sector within sport as well. think Satisfied do very nice interesting content. feels very personal. Running brands and running content is...

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essentially operating in a sea of sameness. It's all very similar content. And I think they're managing to find their own voice, the look and feel. ah And I think they're big enough and small enough to take risks.

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and not be so, you know, like I think for the New York Marathon they dropped a piece of content where a runner went in and had a loo break mid run. And you can imagine those conversations if it was maybe one of the other global brands trying to get that through, um you know, business affairs and legal and comms and so forth. But...

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So I think Satisfye is interesting for me. I'm always interested in uh brands like Palace, I think, you know, UK skate brand, essentially. they're interesting. m Arc'teryx has caught my eye lately because they've been doing some really, really nice stuff around product innovation.

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uh So I really liked how they're doing things. It looks super premium and uh authentic, but I think the storytelling component is a little bit new and little bit fresh. um So yeah, there are a couple of examples of what's caught my eye today, but it's every day there's...

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this stuff, it's kind of exhausting to...

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Cole Heilborn (24:23)

Have you been tracking mammoot at all? I think they're a really interesting case study to examine. Are you familiar with what they've been doing?

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Richard Glennie (24:32)

not

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super familiar.

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Cole Heilborn (24:34)

Quick version

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is they've really taken a entertainment approach to their campaigns. Right. just a couple weeks ago I published an episode with their CMO and we kind of broke down how they approach their social first component of their brand campaigns. And they've really leaned into um, you know, what we might consider lo-fi uh creator-driven content, but it's done so so well and it's it's deeply rooted in their world and their point of view, and it feels very

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very strongly like Bammoot. They've done basically like episodic serial content with a um ski creator. And it's I think it's fantastic. And it's a piece of their larger campaigns. Yes. But it's designed for socials, designed for entertainment. And it's such a great way to plug in creators and athletes in a really natural way. uh I don't know about you, but when I look at uh a content series like that, I feel like that that

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Could it be the future? Is it the future? Um as we consider the post-social world?

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Richard Glennie (25:39)

I mean I think the creator component, if you want to call it that, is only going to grow. I think it's going to become more important and I think it's partly because audiences are looking for voices they trust. It's also because, yeah, a sort of homogenised feed of...

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of content, know, there's something that's distinctive that has a personality and ultimately feels human. And I think that human uh component and approach to storytelling will become more and more important. It'll become a ah signal, if you want to call it that.

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Cole Heilborn (26:31)

Something that I've wondered about is the outdoor industry is unique because it's very much a passion-driven industry. Um it's very much rooted, its heritage is rooted in storytelling. It's kind of baked into, you know, I think a lot of the reason why a lot of us love to be in this industry. Um and the industry, you know, you look at a lot of the brands and there's been a lot of investment in entertainment in the form of long form content documentary film.

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Yeti films in Patagonia are great examples of this. um So storytelling is something that's deeply ingrained in in how we think about brands and communication. What's something though that you feel like we're missing as we look towards the future of entertainment and this type of historical content that the industry does a good job of producing?

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Richard Glennie (27:24)

Well, I think I would sort of almost frame it within sports overall in a way. think that the, to me, sports, entertainment, fashion, culture, design have been colliding and converging. ah

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uh for a number of years, I think ah when you consider, I think you also need to consider the context of the streaming landscape and the big platforms like Netflix and Amazon.

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you know, uh sports is a big part of that, whether it's the long form documentaries or um the, you know, now the live streaming or the video on demand so can watch your match that you missed maybe at your convenience. But I think in the end... um

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The stories that really resonate are essentially human stories. yesterday at Ispo, we both enjoyed the talk by Jimmy Chin. I mean, it blown away. It blew me away, brother. um And I think you can sort of go back to maybe COVID and lockdown in 2020 and the loss of live sport.

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it kind of created an appetite for things like the Last Dance, the Michael Jordan Chicago Bulls story and I think...

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you know now that there are so many sports documentaries and you know every every football team seems to have a an amazon or netflix documentary but the ones that will cut through will have story telling principles at heart i mean you whether you know i'm a football fan so uh... i i haven't watched

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some of them but you know like the Jamie Vardy one was a great story for me of a player who was playing at non-league level, worked his way up with Leicester, you know unbelievably won the Premier League given the sort of economics and the historical sort of... um

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uh challenges uh of getting to the top of the Premier League and so you sort of in the end whether it's um whatever the format I think people gravitate to the the human story and is it relatable and so forth so the narrative basically.

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Cole Heilborn (30:09)

Yeah, I think that's that's something that stands out for me from that Jimmy Chin conversation, which is he talked about you know, the world that obviously the films are created in are worlds where most of us, maybe some of you guys are familiar and can hang off the side of Everest. I can't. Um but the world is unrelatable, but the human stories and the human emotions are.

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I'll ask you a question and this is always I feel like a tough question. Yeah. But I'm curious to hear your thoughts. the ROI of storytelling, how do you think about that? Obviously it's important, um, but part of the CMO's job is to try to combine all of these elements and then and then have some sort of a quantifiable result on the back end. Yes. How do you think about that?

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Richard Glennie (30:57)

you

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uh Well, I think, you know, in the next year or two, we're going to see more investment in brand and brand to me um is an opportunity for storytelling and creativity. um So I think, you know, in recent years, a lot of brands have been really dictated by lower funnel metrics and reporting and that can get you only so far.

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um We talked about Adidas and Nike. think in 2028 we're going to have the Olympics in Los Angeles and I think that's going to be a big stake in the ground. um

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And if I think about brand storytelling next year in 2027, there's a lot of opportunities because you have uh a women's football world cup in Brazil, you have a rugby world cup uh in Australia and New Zealand. think it's Australia. uh But you don't have like a tent pole global moment that eats up all the budget. So I think if...

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For the bigger brands it frees up budget and it means they can go after opportunities. It maybe means if you look at the category like running that the competition for consumers attention is going to get even more intense because there's going to be...

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know, the Brooks, the Ones, and then the smaller, even smaller Challenger brands, ah all doing a great job. And then you've got Nike and Adidas maybe uh investing more money in real life events. um

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experiences like the after dark tour, the event that happened in London at London City Airport. I'm not sure if anyone saw that. I thought it was incredible, very scenic. It's like solving a problem because a lot of female runners don't feel like it's safe to go out running at night. So I thought uh there's a purpose component to it as well.

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And not all brands can obviously go and hire an event company that can get them London City Airport as a location and all this kind of stuff. But that's okay. em did I answer your question?

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Cole Heilborn (33:38)

Well I'll ask a follow-up question. Um we have a a few minutes left just so folks, if you guys have questions that you wanna lob our way, I'll open up the last few minutes for that. so write down if you have If not, that's okay. Um so to follow up on what you just said there, um you said that in the next two years you feel like brand will be invested in considerably more than it has historically. tell me a little bit more about why that is and what the business case is.

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Richard Glennie (34:05)

I think if you look at a brand like Adidas for example, who's uh really, I would say, know, it's returned to profitability. um

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Its CEO has made the brand more agile. It's done a great job of making its product franchises like Samba uh relevant to male and female consumers. It's continued to invest in bricks and mortar retail as well as the DTC model. um They're a great example of having invested in brand over the last...

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two, three, four years and now you see the results of it and I think there's a lot of studies that show that investment in brand pays off both long term and short term but uh if you take your foot off the pedal in terms of investing in brand and your brand becomes less cool your lower funnel will ultimately suffer. um

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Cole Heilborn (35:18)

I I think uh I've heard this from some brand strategists and they've they've brought brought this point up which is because of this world and and how we consume media and how, you know, there's so many different mediators that refract and own a piece of a brand and who they are that we as as brand marketers have never had we've had we have very little control over the brand that we steward these days. Right. comparatively

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to 10 or 15, 20 years ago. uh When we have so much less control over the brand, what are the things that we really have to be trying to steward uh just understanding that it's an amalgamation of the associations that people uh put out there in the world?

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Richard Glennie (36:08)

Like we start to talk about at the top of this conversation, Cole, the fundamentals are around consumer centricity and that hasn't changed. it's really, for me, it's understanding the consumer today versus six months ago versus 12 months ago and what that consumer wants. if, let's say, co-creation or collaborations is these sort

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um tactical elements are important to continue to make the brand relevant um then I think that's something that you explore and I think you know particularly with social media platforms you can do a lot of testing and

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you can figure out what works and what isn't working and the stuff that's working you amplify and all that kind of stuff. I think it's about being agile and open-minded and but yeah definitely um some of the tactics and approaches today are a little bit different and you know different generations maybe want different things from different brands so it's also about how you segment your messaging

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your approach ah to, I don't know, like a 35 year old versus a 22 year old and so forth. So different generations want different things as well.

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Cole Heilborn (37:39)

Yeah. Um do we have any questions with a little bit of time? Well yeah, this conversation's been very high level. Like Nike Adidas that kind of uh what about like a smaller emerging startup or mid-level company, let's say outdoor gear. What kind of strategies would you use would be with Foley?

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Richard Glennie (37:57)

ah

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Yeah, mean I think um I mean social media will be hugely a huge focus you know in terms of creating the traction and visibility I think finding your tribe or finding your your community and sort of building that way is important I think from a business point of view as well

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uh understanding your competitor landscape and what is different um or similar to your competitors is obviously important. So building that retail partnership component is fundamental. It's sometimes a little bit less sexy component of brand marketing, but super important. mean, I had...

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an old boss and he moved from a large global sports brand to uh a smaller brand and he was very sales driven and so he put all his marketing spend in retail marketing and that was his thing and he was like the product sells through, the retailers are happy that he buy in again. um That being said I think the

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the brand awareness and recognition was not maybe something that was there. I wouldn't necessarily agree with that, but for him and his remit and his ah bosses, that kind of worked. um yeah, it's a good question. think it's really...

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There's not a cookie cutter approach, there's certain things that you need to do, but obviously understanding your consumer and understanding your competitors and the business landscape is kind of fundamental.

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Cole Heilborn (39:53)

Any other questions? Yeah, we thank you very much for the conversation that you maybe I'll just repeat the question real quick. Um and let me know if I get this right. So the question is in a world of dark social we're we're where um you know consumers are going offline or into private chats, where brands are you know allowed, let's say, um, is it repulsive or is it is there a negative sentiment when brands try to figure out how to show up? Is that the that's okay.

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Richard Glennie (40:22)

Yeah, know it's great question. think, and it depends on, uh I guess, the norms or the behaviors of each platform we're describing. Like personally, I would hate for a brand to be connecting with me on WhatsApp, for example. um So I think it's understanding.

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the community and the audience first of all and what is going to be additive to them and the role that you can play. So I think gaming is an obvious area where ah know channels like Discord and Twitch are obviously preeminent there but brands can play a role there but I think it's when you're looking at

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community engagement, it's really about being authentic, adding value and not being transactional and hopefully being there for the long term so that you're not doing it as a two year short term deal, it's something that you commit to and that's something that consumers will feel as well.

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Cole Heilborn (41:39)

I also think your customer and your audience will tell you. Yes. Um if you're

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Richard Glennie (41:44)

Totally. I mean we had a brand that wanted to go into Reddit and so the media agency was like, hey look, you know, and I think the media agency was just interested in piloting and for this particular brand and this campaign

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as the lead agency, we're like, look, we're not sure this is right. You haven't paid your dues. It's like, you know, and one of the things is you might hear some comments or feedback that you maybe are not uh ready to hear. So I think you need to be smart about where and how you go in and engage. I think traditionally brands like Nike have done quite well.

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terms of picking where they go but also I think partnering with the communities in the right way so I think that's important. It's understanding what is it you're trying to achieve from it. It's not just visibility, know, people want more now.

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Cole Heilborn (42:55)

Um Richard, thank you for taking the time today. This has been a fun conversation. What's one fundamental you would leave people with as they leave here today as I mean you you've mentioned commu you know, focus on the consumer. Yep. If you couldn't choose that one, what would your second fundamental be as we sign off here?

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Richard Glennie (43:12)

uh Human creativity, think, and taste, think that remains a business driver and it's going to become more more important.

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Cole Heilborn (43:24)

Beautiful. Cool. All right. Thank you everyone. Thanks for joining us.

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