Daniel Groh  (00:00):

The moment you get lazy, you'll get dropped. I think for us, loyalty is never acquired, it's never gained. It's something that needs to be built and continuously nourished. This idea of full brand loyalty doesn't exist anymore. So for example, if someone chooses us for our shorts, we continue to make sure that we're providing the best shorts for that guest. It's really about understanding the nuances of where we're loyal and where guests are loyal to us. Everyone else is evolving. So if we stay stagnant, we're going to lose into someone else.

Cole Heilborn (00:26):

On this podcast, we go behind the scenes with industry experts as they break down what it takes to produce creative work that works. If you're seeking insights from some of the sharpest minds of the industry, this is your guidebook to producing creative work that actually delivers. Welcome to the Backcountry Marketing Podcast. Today I'm sitting down with Daniel Grow. He's the chief brand officer at Satisfy. Daniel, welcome to the show.

Daniel Groh  (00:48):

Hey Cole, thanks for having me.

Cole Heilborn (00:49):

Yeah, thanks for taking the time. Thanks for joining. How are you doing?

Daniel Groh  (00:53):

Good, good. Happy to end the week with you and it's going to be a fun one. I know we've covered a lot and so we're excited to go through all of that.

Cole Heilborn (01:00):

Yeah, so let's just jump straight to it. We got a lot to dig into. When you and I connected on our intro call, you kind of set the stage with this idea of your thesis. It was kind of like simplifying marketing. Tell me more about this idea and can you kind of give us a thesis statement to set us up for the conversation to come?

Daniel Groh  (01:18):

I think we landed on that just because of my background and agency where everything was process driven. I think at the time we got to a great idea. The idea kind of got muddled down into something that really wasn't an idea anymore. And so that's really what kind of sparked this anti-process at a methodology, what we try and apply here at Satisfy where we protect the idea as much as possible. So for us it's about putting away through process, holding in a room and really being able to find that spark and then protecting that spark as much as possible. And I think for us it's really important to note that that spark can come from anyone in the room. It could come from someone that's passing by as we're brainstorming, and it's that acceptance and that accessibility to where that spark comes from is really how we keep the authenticity of the brand alive.

Cole Heilborn (02:06):

So in this episode we're going to dive into how you look and view your audience, your customers. We're going to talk about content and strategy behind content. We're going to talk about creativity, we're going to talk about how to distribute all of that content, but with this premise of keeping it simple, which is such a, as someone who spent 200 episodes trying to unpack all of the elements and insights behind great brand and strategy, this is almost kind of a good reminder for me of maybe it needs to be simpler than we imagine it can be. So let's start with your customers. We'll start with your audience where it all starts. How do you think about them?

Daniel Groh  (02:49):

I think that's a really good question and I think the biggest shift are two ways. And so first and foremost, we don't call and I correct my team all the time. We don't call our customers customers, our consumers and all that stuff. We call them guests. And I think that's a really big shift for us just because we want to have everything that we do come through a hospitality lens. We want people to feel welcome. We want people to feel taken care of and calling them a guest to really make sure that we're landing that idea. I used to come from a hospitality background, and so having that sense of welcoming and really all that stuff you learn when you take care of a guest in a restaurant setting or in a hotel setting really allows you to fully understand how you're supposed to make someone feel welcome.

(03:29):

And I think that's really what we're trying to do here at Satisfying. So that's the first big shift. And so whenever people come, when they say consumer, it's always, oh, nope, not consumer, it's guest. And that really helps people project into really how we want to speak to the people that we call our community today. The second makeshift is exactly what I just said a second ago where we speak to people, we don't necessarily speak to runners, we speak to people that run. And I think it's that nuance that really helps us really expand what the satisfy universe can be. I think a lot of brands speak to runners and that really pigeonholes them into talking about performance, talking about pbs, talking about races that everyone expects them to be at. I think having that lens of saying, okay, as a brand, we're speaking to people that have run for years, people that are just starting to run or people that don't run and that might run really opens us up to a lot of stories and a lot of different almost ecosystems for us to really explore. And so I think those two nuances of how we're looking at who we serve is really important for us to really keep satisfy what it is and also help us grow in the years to come.

Cole Heilborn (04:38):

Yeah. Let's come back to this idea of referring to your customers as guests. That seems like such a simple shift, but maybe a simple shift that has such a really profound impact on everything that you do. Can you share some examples of how that has influenced how you interact with them?

Daniel Groh  (04:54):

A hundred percent. I'll give you an example, two examples. Experience is a big part for us at satisfy experience, meaning how we show up in the real world. Obviously being a D two C brand, a lot of our transactions, a lot of our relationships are built online. So for us it was really important to really establish what that meant on the ground with people face to face. And so we have a grassroots format called LSD, which is a monthly run that we do in about 12 cities now, scaling that down to almost 15, 16 by the end of the year. And it's a format that's free. Guests can come in, sign up, obviously it's capped, but once they come in, it's an experience that's almost designed and what other brands have designed, designed for influencers. But really it's how we bring that care into that experience allows people to feel welcome in a space that they've never felt welcome before.

(05:43):

And I'm not talking about just like, okay, here's a banana and go on your way. It's really the best catering from all the cities that we do. It's really well thought out. So for example, if you join us in Bali, you'll have fresh cold coconuts right after your run. If you join us in Paris, you have this amazing kind of French pastry that we do with our friends at our cafe called Dreaming Man. So each experience is really localized to really bring out the best of the city, even the routes that we're doing. So it's really about bringing this idea of care and that's something that we've started to bring across with the team where satisfy everything that we knew needs to be done with care and care as a service gesture.

Cole Heilborn (06:17):

How does that impact your content and the strategy behind your contents?

Daniel Groh  (06:21):

Really, really good question. I think it starts from what are we trying to land as an emotion and I think what are we trying to achieve? And so when we build our content structure, a big part of our Instagram is dedicated a piece of content that we call Dream. And it's really about making people imagine what running can be through either amazing locations, amazing storytelling, and all we're trying to do is really land a different point of view. And as we're sitting as a room, we're trying to think about, okay, what are the stories that people haven't heard and what are the authentic points of views that other brands are perhaps a little bit afraid to share? And so a really good example was a couple years ago when one of our first athletes, Mike, he was running I feel like Coca Donut or he was trying to do the FKT on the Colorado Trail.

(07:10):

And unfortunately like many runners, he dnf and for us, we sat in a room, we're thinking about do we share this perspective where other brands, this is something that you put in a closet, hush hush, and then wait for his attempt next year. But we felt as a brand together with Mike, that was important to show the full side of running to show that it's a journey to show that you can come back from A DNF and win the next year. And so for us it's really about also thinking about what are the perspectives that we want to lead in and from an emotional perspective and say, okay, maybe you haven't heard of this perspective before, but let's introduce it to you as a brand. And ever since then we've always shared whether an athlete finishes a race, DNFs a race, no matter what placement they do, we try our best as brand partners and that's how we see our athletes.

(07:57):

We're partners to them, we're at their service just as we're at the service of our guests to help share their story obviously whenever they're comfortable to. And so really we're thinking it from that perspective of new ways of really shining light to the sport and really being able to express emotion, and I'll say emotion a lot through here because that's really what we're trying to land. And I said this before in another interview, we just so happen to be a really good company that is great at building emotions that operates in running. I think that's our forte and how we spark emotion. And I think you might've heard, or people might say, we're a polarizing brand and that's what happens when you spark emotion. I think if we are a brand for everyone, I don't think people will be as excited of what we do because that means everything that we do is vanilla.

Cole Heilborn (08:46):

So emotion is something we talk a lot about on this podcast and it's something that I talk and try to champion and encourage brands to lean into the emotions, but there's inevitably a barrier to bringing emotion into marketing and into storytelling because it always comes back to the quantifiable ROI, all those basic business class 1 0 1 questions. How do you work through that? Is that something that you're concerned about? Is that something, what's your philosophy around emotion and business and how they should or shouldn't intersect?

Daniel Groh  (09:25):

I think that's a really good question and I'm here to myth bust that at least from the satisfy perspective, that through all of our social media tracking data in terms of engagement shares, likes, saves our athlete content is by far the content that performs the most. And it's the content within the athlete sphere that's sharing a story and most likely is either anchored in triumph or despair. So two very strong emotions that humans latch onto. It's either our community celebrating with one of our athletes as they achieve something amazing or empathizing and understanding that sometimes you can't show up at a hundred percent and that's okay and we'll be there for you the next time my my speaker phone to everyone is that emotion from what we're seeing at Safi is definitely something that does convert because it's building that fandom around the stories that you're trying to build.

(10:21):

Whenever we're showing more, I would like to say emotive content, so we have a piece coming out for a winter drop in the next couple of weeks that will probably be the most romantic running film you've ever seen, right? It's very much attached to kind of the solitude almost of what running is like in a winter setting where it's really funny in summer everyone's really chipper, everyone's out there, but once it starts to snow, no one's really excited to go out for a run. But how you can turn that solitude into almost something that's very beautiful and reflective. And I think being able to communicate that emotion allows people to attach to it. And then through that kind of chemistry, then the product leads. And I think what we're really trying to do is build a world and everything that we do, the athletes that we choose to work with, the product that we build all falls into that world.

(11:15):

And it's a choice for our guests to decide whether or not they want to partake or partake in this certain world. And so right now we're in this crazy western story arc just because what many people don't know is that people think that we do a lot of Western stuff because we think it's cool and fun, but it's actually very much anchored into Brie's history. So Brie's parents used to own a Americana store in the south of France, so it's very much anchored to he is as a person. So everything that we do is really related to who we are as a brand, satisfy being an extension of who Bri is. And so right now we just so happen to be in this western arc, and so we're building that world. Who knows where we're going to be in nine months time as we build another world. And so really all we're trying to do is build these worlds, create these emotions that people can experience in these worlds, and hopefully people lean in and decide to partake. If not, that's great and perhaps they'll join us in another world that we decide to build in the future.

Cole Heilborn (12:10):

So for the series, I think I saw you on my run, what goal do you have for your guests as they're consuming that piece of content? What are you hoping they take away from it? Talk to me about the intentionality behind a series like that.

Daniel Groh  (12:24):

So that series is really designed to just share what we are as a brand unsatisfied. The only goal really is one for people to be like, wow, that was sick. And two, now I want to get out on my run. And I think it's the perfect combination of beautiful scenery, really nice cinematography and a really great soundtrack. And something that we're really good at here at Safi is we've built this very strong musical DNA. When you get it right and you built all those three things together, it works. And it's just a magical recipe that can't be replicated. And I think for the marketers that are listening on this call today, that was the first time that we debuted a new silhouette in the Satisfied Range, which was the Peace Shell River shirt. And we debuted that new technology, that product innovation, if you would like to call it that in that film.

(13:09):

And once we released that shirt, it's sold out almost immediately. And so it's also a demonstration to the fact where when you're building content that's engaging regardless of whether or not it's designed to push that product, which it wasn't, right? We worked with Matt who was our athlete, and he said, I want to wear this shirt. I think it's sick. And it was a very organic way of placing the product. It wasn't on a deck and that we said we need to launch this, right? It was really just a genuine conversation with Matt saying, Hey, I love this shirt. It's new, it's what I've been running in place that onto the set. And then boom, the rest is history. And so there really is that very good strong link of once again repeating it, creating emotion, being able to transport someone somewhere. And then if all those things come together and really hit to the viewer, then you're able to really create that strong product link, assuming that one it's available and all of those good things.

Cole Heilborn (14:00):

So you use the word engaging. What are the ingredients that make up engaging content? How do you define that?

Daniel Groh  (14:06):

I think for us, I don't want to reinvent the wheel here, but I think today in a day and age of so much content, it's about stopping power. I really think it's more about one, being able to stop your scroll. Two, keep your attention and decide whether or not you're going to be able to share or share your attention with me as someone that's projecting this content to you. And I think the one that we're trying to win the most right now is how we're encouraging our fans to share the content, to get more people to see what we're doing here at Satisfy. And I think that's what a lot of brands are looking at right now, that Share Metric, how many times the Post is getting shared is something that we're really starting to look at more and more here at Satisfy. Because for us, that's a good sign of content.

(14:52):

And I think there's no really easy answer to how to unpack shares, right? I think for us, what we're seeing from the early signs of data is that product releases Garner Shares because it's a more transactional form of, Hey Cole, did you see this? This is coming out soon. But where we're seeing the most shares is really, once again, going back to the longer form pieces of content that are one, either awe-inspiring, sparking an emotion, or I wouldn't even say not necessarily linked to product. We're really linked to something that's really, really impactful. We launched a climbing collection almost, I would say two years ago now. It was called Stoner. And we have this really beautiful impactful shot of two climbers that climb up to a crag and share a really nice rest and kiss. And that post still gets featured and shared up until this day.

(15:44):

And so it goes back to the point of so many people in the world, so many people haven't seen that, but people are still connecting to that. Whether or not they know satisfy that collection isn't even really available, but they're still sharing that because it sparks that emotion, it sparks that. Wow. And that's really what we're looking at when in terms of how we're defining engagement. Because if you're looking at likes a lot of those things today, it's really hard, especially how much the algorithm is pushing you just because you could have the best piece of content, but if it's not posted at the right time or shared immediately, that can kind of close. But I think it's really about when it gets the right exposure, how we're getting that share and that love as well.

Cole Heilborn (16:26):

Okay. People still, and I'm kind of amazed that they debate short form versus long form, and I feel like, I don't know, that topic doesn't feel like something we even need to discuss anymore. I think the short answer is both are useful, both have their own place. Long form certainly is not dead and short form can be useful at times. If you just had to put that argument to rest or put it on a shelf and be done with it, how would you respond to that argument?

Daniel Groh  (17:00):

I would encourage in the most humblest of ways for people to go on our Instagram profile. Look at, I think I saw my run today, look at the number of views and notice that it's a long form film that we encourage our guests to flip their iPhone. So a lot of effort required to really consume the film in its full entirety, but that's really the end all to all of that. We also just relaunched a documentary called The Ranch, which was a recap of the training camp that we did up in Wyoming, 15 minutes, really short, I mean short and very long in our new day and age, it's on YouTube and a lot of the comments is saying, I wish this was longer, I wish this was longer. And so it really demonstrates that if you're hitting the right message, drafting the right story arc, there isn't such a debate about whether it should be short or long. And I think it's about if people think it's too long, that means the content wasn't good. If people think it's too short, that means the content was good and you should have made it longer. And so I think it's really just about understanding how you're demonstrating and building what you're trying to put out.

Cole Heilborn (18:02):

So there's this element of effort that I feel like marketers are trying to maybe dumb down for the audience. They're like, or guests, sorry. It's like, let's make this as simple and as effortless as possible for the audience to engage with. But I'm not entirely convinced that that's the right way to go. To your point, for people to enjoy some of your content on your Instagram may literally have to flip their phone 90 degrees in the world of digital, that's considered a lot of effort that takes exertion to do it. Are we confusing effort with something else because we're missing something else? And we're just looking at effort as a way to try and make up for the lack of whatever that factor is.

Daniel Groh  (18:48):

I think people are looking for a quick win. And I think what we do when we look for the long form engagement that we try and do with films, I think Asana, my run one or two, the Ranch documentary is we're asking for permission to be consumed. We're saying, Hey, we've built this beautiful piece of content. We know you're busy, consume it when you want. And I think that's something that we try and something we talked about earlier is this idea of consistently pushing concepts. And I think to your point, I think people or marketers today are obsessed with impact very soon and novelty. And I think those two things are detriment to a brand because if you share impact too soon, you're only really looking for the people that are engaging with your posts in the first 24 hours and you're dumbing down the fact that that content could live for years.

(19:39):

If I talk about it, I think I saw you in my run today, for example, or the post on the climbing collection that we did. And also in terms of consistency, I think a lot of great brands out there lose really good concepts because they're like, no, we did that last year. Or even within the same calendar year, within the same kind of brand between different races. You might launch a really great concept at Berlin or not Berlin too late in the season in Paris, for example, and London's two weeks after, but you'll want to change the concept because it's London and you don't want to do what you did in Paris. And I think that's detrimental because your Paris guest isn't necessarily the guest in London, but who's to say they wouldn't have the same experience? And I think it's that almost once again, going back to what you said about simplifying it for the guest or simplifying for the audience and saying, no, they wouldn't want that, they want something different.

(20:39):

It's like, no, I think we're in a world where we're so connected but also so disconnected where I think people be able to experience something that's a little bit more long-term. Especially now when we look at what sales velocity looks like for our products, our drops it unfairly quickly just because of the supply and demand structures. We're trying to get better at that because we know it's not great to be able to miss out on a drop. People are busy at 5:00 PM CET, whenever we send our newsletters, people are picking up their kids in a meeting or I dunno, having lunch on a run. And so who we are as a brand to tell people to stop and say, Hey, drop what you're doing, the newsletters going out. And so that's also something where we're trying to get better at and saying, we respect your time, we respect that you have stuff to do as a person, so let me be able to cadence out how I'm building my brand.

(21:35):

So even if you miss out once, there's an opportunity to participate later on. And that's the biggest thing that we're trying to do at Satisfy is almost rewire. I think we've built our brand through this almost impossible to get mentality. And obviously that takes you to a certain step, but how are we reworking this idea of access to what Satisfy is as a brand? And saying Access can not just have to be about being there at a drop time, but let's say being able to experience something exclusively at an LSD for example, where I think it's a little bit more forgiving to say, oh, okay, I have to be in Bali to get the coconuts versus I have to be at Coca Donut to get the Coca Donut experience. And I think building access and consistency and exclusivity through that way is a lot better than just frustrating your guests by being sold out.

Cole Heilborn (22:27):

So yeah, you started all that by saying short-term gains and novelty can be the death of a brand. Tell me more about the novelty factor there.

Daniel Groh  (22:37):

I think, and this is coming from my background in advertising where everyone's trying to chase awards and chase LinkedIn likes, and I think people forget that you're doing it not for your peers in the marketing industry, but you're doing it for the end guest. And if they're not reacting to what you're building and reacting to the sake of you being creative for the sake of being creative, there's no point in doing it all. So I think it's that lack of connection to who you're really doing it for Link and how we started the conversation of working for the end guest that really creates that sake of novelty. And it's, I would say, very, it takes a lot of insistence to make someone feel bored of what your concept is, because that means you've assumed that everyone's seen it. For us, if you take something as simple as Moth Tech, which is one of our signature technologies that we've introduced 10 years ago, it's still new for people. Imagine if we said, no, we're going to kill Matech in year five because everyone's seen it. That would've been the worst mistake for satisfy, right? And so it's that understanding and that ness of saying, okay, no, this message can still be tweaked. It can still live on, and being able to say that, no, I believe in the creativity that's in this. I believe in what we're trying to push and being able to say that you can have it live on versus being like, no, we've done that. Let's try something new.

Cole Heilborn (24:05):

So most brands struggle to capture attention when you look at all the things that are competing for their time, the audience's time, Netflix, Reddit, Facebook, all the things. And I'm just listening to the digital things, not the actual things that matter more. I think most brands really struggle to earn a piece of that attention. And something that I've talked a lot about on this podcast is this idea that you can't assume that your audience wants to hear from you because if you make that assumption, then you've already lost the game. To your point about thinking about your customers and your audience as guests, what has satisfied done differently that has earned the attention? And when you come out with a piece of content, your guests already, they're eager for it, they're looking forward to it, when most brands would probably kill to have that level of attention. What have you guys done differently?

Daniel Groh  (25:06):

I think, I don't want to call it a simple formula, but we always work in a way where the first thing that we do something at a cultural moment, whether it's Coca Donut, whether it's at UTMB, we do shock and awe. We really show up unannounced with something that blows everyone out of the park, and that really sets the stage of, or even something as not even end guest facing, like TRE, when we showed up last year, we really showed up with a bang. And that's what we love to do best because it kind of sets the stake in the ground and say, okay, satisfies here. And I think we've established the fact that we don't do one and dones and we're coming back. And so we've established that as a cultural moment for satisfy. And so every single year you'll have guests saying, are you coming back to Coco?

(25:52):

Are you coming back to UTMB? Are you coming back to TRE? For example? Are you going to do anything at Black Canyon later this year? And we used to do a lot more on the marathon circuit, and we moved away from that this year as we really wanted to focus on the trail circuit. We'll hopefully be back on the marathon circuit next year, but that even comes from marathon circuit. So I think for us, it's about finding the cultural moments, and I think that's best because like what you said, we're competing with the tension across so many things. You just mentioned social networks, but there's people's lives, jobs, et cetera, et cetera. And so rather than try and create our own moments, which are a lot more difficult and a lot, it's almost impossible to create your own moment. I think we've done it with saddles, but that's a separate case.

(26:37):

What we like to do is say, okay, where's people's attention going to be? Let's have the moment to 80% of the job. What we need to do right now is make sure that when we're at that moment and people are looking at us and not at everyone else, and I think that we've done a really good job in doing that. And those events, when people come to Coca Donut, they're like, is satisfied going to be at faint aid? And that's something that is a given at this point. And if we're not, and I hope we'll be there every single year moving forward the day we're not, and then hopefully that doesn't come. People are, I would say, definitely going to be disappointed. And I think it's the fact that we're consistent. We're building that almost amazing experience that feels so different from the rest that people want to be able to come that. And so I think it's that combination of understanding and knowing where your guest is going to be and just making sure you show up in a way that feels satisfy is how we win almost at every single experience that we do.

Cole Heilborn (27:33):

And so you're saying that shock and awe has created an expectation from your guests that anything that satisfy might do is worthy of paying attention to?

Daniel Groh  (27:42):

Exactly right. If I take an example of Coca Donut, everyone's expecting a nice little table with some crackers, maybe some tacos. You come to the Safi station, you have Togo's, you have a massage therapist, you have pancakes, you have vegan options, you have Morton gels, you have Float. That's shock and awe. And it's really about juxtaposing what the industry does at that moment or what the cultural sphere does that we'll do the opposite. And so Coca, very low key race will come in with a very high key concept, right? TRE, the biggest running trade show in the world. Ironically, a lot of brands do a very low key setup. So we come in with almost what looks like a store built out. And so we're almost doing the opposite almost of what everyone else is doing because that really helps us stand out in a way that's very credible.

(28:34):

UTMB, everyone's in the village building out their crazy build outs. Hoka has this insane space. We have a garage 15 minutes outside of the city, you know what I mean? And it's about just always flipping the script and being like, okay, they have to be crazy enough to do that, and if they're crazy enough to do that, there must be something interesting. And so UTMB is always a really amazing one for us where our guests are walking 15 minutes out of their way outside of City Center to come spend a time, a moment with us. And so the way we're thinking about that is, okay, fine, we'll have a retail aspect, but how are we building an ecosystem for them to really spend as much time with us as possible for them to be like, okay, that walk was worth it. And so this year we installed a fuel station upstairs where if you're coming post run, pre-run, you can refill with Morton, you can refill with Florida, you can just come out and hang the view, speak to our athletes if you want to spend some money. There's a retail space downstairs we did runs every day. And so for us, it's really about how do we make this worth it for you because we're conscious, and that's something that we're always thinking about. If you're spending time, money, effort with us, we have to make it worth it for you. And if we don't, then we've let you down.

Cole Heilborn (29:53):

Yeah. Oh, that's so good. You mentioned it's really hard to create moments, so we have to take a moment where our guests will already be and then carve out a piece of that for us. How does that apply to, again, content strategy and understanding where your guests are consuming content, how they're consuming it, and then maybe trying to slip a piece of content into that little sliver of attention that exists?

Daniel Groh  (30:25):

Yeah, I think for us it's about understanding what's credible to us in our tone of voice and really being able to make sure that we're not the brand that's trying to be funny. And I think we're quite conscious of the fact that we want to be able to build a world where we can show up in a way that's useful. And so sometimes we'll slip in a couple of different kind of surprising moments, but really where we try and shine is really through different facets. And so the satisfy Instagram will be very curated, very aesthetically pleasing, and then we will have different facets of the brand like Possess Magazine that allow us to go left. And I think it's about understanding where and how to show up. And I think for us, digital equals Instagram for the moment. I think that's really where we found our voice.

(31:16):

YouTube is, I would say a secondary hub for a little bit more of our long form format, but I know we've just scratched the surface of that. We're still a very small team, and so if we go do something, we do it. But then I think where we've done a really good job in creating unexpected Brand Moment is Possess Magazine, for example, which is a, I would say four to five issue a year publication that we do in-house, a magazine about running that sometimes talks about running but doesn't really, right? It's a really great avenue for us to explore the culture that surrounds running. We've done issues on other brands, pro athletes because we wanted to celebrate running culture as a whole. We've done issues on running Meccas. We did an issue in Arizona because we're always there and we wanted to kind of tell the world why this French brand is spending so much time in Arizona.

(32:04):

We just did a last issue on the ranch, which was all about our protein. And within that issue, we actually have a little bit of an Easter egg, which is kind of this play on Running Cult member. It's a slogan that's attached to the Satisfied brand. It's been there for the longest time. We have another slogan called Possess. And when we were on the ranch trip, the team thought it would be really funny to air quotes, initiate our newest recruit Yoan through this funny cult thing. And so it's something that the athlete team did without even telling us, and they just said, Hey, can you guys record this? It's going to be really funny. And it makes a cameo at the end of our documentary. So if you haven't watched the documentary until the end would recommend to make it to the end credits, and there's a full kind of feature that breaks down what Eaton Satis is, which is the kind of cult to satisfy and possess.

(32:53):

And so we're using different channels to allow us to flex a little bit of how fun we can be as a brand and then create those unexpected moments. Bumper stickers, we started doing bumper stickers almost a year and a half ago now, and that's something that not a lot of brands did in the running space. They would do the little logo cutouts about, we really thought running bumping stickers a really fun way to express a more fun quirky side. And so that's also another avenue for us to express, but I think we're very much conscious on what's credible for us to do as a brand, because if we start mixing different emotions into one channel, I think we're going to lose people. And while also what we're really conscious about is that we have guests that consume us in different ways, and so we want to be respectful for those guests and understanding that the fun, quirky, almost weird running stuff is isolated to possessed and people can choose to consume possessed versus if it was on the Instagram that we're just force feeding content to people that perhaps don't want to see that.

Cole Heilborn (33:55):

If you had to generalize and look at your average outdoor active brand, what do they get wrong when it comes to their content and the strategy behind it all?

Daniel Groh  (34:07):

I think instead of trying to do their own thing, they're really trying to build something that follows other brands. And I think that's a little bit unfortunate. I think if we look at some of the heritage brands have so much DNA and so much great content in their back pocket that they need to be doubling down on what they know that they can do best. I'll give you a really good example. There was a time and place where people really loved blurry running photos with that effect. I think some brands still do that today, so no offense to those brands that still do that. Oh,

Cole Heilborn (34:40):

It's still a really popular,

Daniel Groh  (34:41):

You know what I mean? Or the famous, let me jump between Two Rocks. I think those are all not accurate reflections of how people are running today. And I think that's the biggest thing where I think people need to, or people, our brands need to understand that it's okay to show reality. I think obviously it's okay to show people sweating. I think it's okay to show people in pain or suffering because it's a reflection and demonstrates the end guests that you're not making, I don't want to say making fun of them, but you're not taking them as idiots in essence, and it's kind of dumbing it down. You don't need to show people smiling. People don't expect that people expect effort. People expect really hard work from a brand, and people want to see that from their content. And so I think it's a misunderstanding of what their guests really expect is of that short form answer to what they're getting wrong.

Cole Heilborn (35:42):

I almost feel like though a lot of brands even struggle to answer that initial question, what do we produce for our guests that's actually interesting and engaging?

Daniel Groh  (35:52):

Yeah, I think there's a really good example right now. I think Nike's doing an amazing comeback story, or I don't even want to call it Comeback. And this is what I argue with people all the time where people are like, oh, Nike's going down. It's like, no, they're still the biggest sports brand in the world, so they're fine. But I think the recent wave of communication that they've done across all of their different sports, it's done a really good job and it demonstrates that they do know what their guest looks for. People look to Nike for innovation, for inspiration, for being able to flip the curve. And I think that's really, really what they're tapping into right now. And it's demonstrating that they're how people are engaging with what they're doing, whether that's through a CG or some of the work that they're doing, the running space.

(36:36):

I think that's really a really great space to be, right. If I look at another brand, if we look at on, I think they've tapped really, really well into their almost futuristic innovative space. The work that they've done around light spray is really interesting and really tapping into that. And so I think it's there, it's coming, and I think it's just that willingness to say, this is our heritage. This is really who we are as a brand. And not having to be like, oh, okay, look, satisfies done this, or X brand has done this. We should be doing this because of the engagement. It's understanding. And this is really what we've done a big exercise on is we believe that our guest isn't necessarily a Nike guest or an on guest or a Bandit guest or a Tracksmith guest. We've defined and understood that we speak to specific set of people, and obviously I'm talking about brands with different business sizes and business kind of ambitions, but it's a true understanding of who they are as a person, how are they consuming and the key message that they want to receive that really helps us really dial in how we're doing content versus how other brands are doing content.

Cole Heilborn (37:46):

What are some myths out there? We spoke to one long form versus short form that you feel like your average marketer gets wrong about content.

Daniel Groh  (37:56):

A big one that I learned myself is how people react to failure. I spoke about that a little bit earlier, but showing failure is okay. I think there's always this assumption that we need to show up being perfect, but I think being able to show emotion and show vulnerability is really important to show that brands can be human as well. And that's what I always tell my teams as we both satisfy into the future. Remember that it will evolve and that's okay, and we need to treat satisfy as someone that's growing up and that you'll see that in our designs. You'll see that in how we communicate, and being able to have that ability to evolve and not be static as a brand is really, really important. So I think another myth, I think we're much conditioned to playbooks and DNA and brand books, and I think those are great as you onboard new people, but you need to make sure that that brand book isn't done and dusted and it is evolving with the times.

(38:48):

And I think what we found too is really understanding where you can't play. There are so many moments in the calendar year where we're like, should we be there? And we sit collectively as a team and say, no, that's not really credible for who we are in our strategy for this year. And I think learning to say no is also a really big kind of myth where I think there's this expectation to be everywhere. Whereas what we've learned is that no isn't an expectation to be at the events that you've built your brand against. And so I think that's also another key learning that I've taken away from this year too.

Cole Heilborn (39:23):

Point of view is an element of all of this that we haven't really talked a lot about. You mentioned it earlier, in order for content to, one of the ingredients of great content is the brand has to have a point of view, and that has to be felt and seen through the content. Again, I think this is something that brands struggle with is developing a point of view. Maybe they have it developed, but then figuring out how to articulate it and actually get it out into the world. Any advice or ideas around developing and then distributing that point of view?

Daniel Groh  (39:54):

It's a really good question. That's a tough question. I think that's something that we continuously ask ourselves, even here at Satisfy, where our point of view is simple, right? It's how do we bridge the juxtaposition between the urban world and outdoor culture? I think we're very conscious of the fact that the majority of our guest space lives in urban centers, and we believe that their dream is to one day either move to the outdoors, move to nature, or spend their time there. And so for us, it's about how we bridge that gap. We call it concrete to mud, and how us as a brand, we're able to help provide the content, the product, the experiences that help make that journey a lot more seamless. We're not going to solve it, but we'll do our best and able to provide you with the tools and the play box and the ecosystem to really help play in that way.

(40:42):

And so that's why the Rocker was designed in a way that was using a lot of that kind of cushioning and super foam feel that people are used to in a road shoe and helping them slowly navigate their way to the trail. LSD is a similar format where Run Club is very much 5K track workout. How do we introduce a format that introduces our guest space to longer time outside? We do a take down version called Trail sd, which is really interesting enough, and something I'm really proud of is that we accompany a lot of our guests on their first trail run or their first long run. And that's something that creates emotion and creates a lot of brand loyalty where Thank you for helping me do this big moment in my running journey, which a lot of brands also forget about, which goes back to my services.

(41:32):

And so I think it starts from what are we trying to do as a brand? And then it needs to felt in everything that you're doing, so not just from a content perspective, but really from every single touch point that you're producing as a brand. And so I think it's a question that evolves. It's a question that we're consistently answering ourselves, but I think it's about understanding really what's the mission for the year. And it doesn't have to be your brand mission, but what's the line of sight that we're trying to do as a brand and really hammer that down and consistently hammer that down across the year. And that will come through. And I think the one thing that I want to share too is that it will take time. I honestly believe that any single brand can, I don't want to say be credible in something, but can transition to something, but it takes time and you need to incubate that thought.

(42:25):

If one day X brand decides to do a shoot with crop tops and fringe crop tops, people are going to be like, that's a satisfied copycat. There's maybe one day they can pull that off. But there's a way to incubate that, and I think that's what a lot of the brands do wrong, where guests will kind of pick up on that and they'll be like, oh, they're just trying to be a second satisfy. But it's just like your brand can evolve and kind of take cues from what you think is working from other categories and what other brands are doing, but you need to install that in a way that is slowly accepted by your guest space and hopefully it brings it in. It's like if one day you show up Cole and you shaved your whole beard off and people be like, whoa, what happened? And so I think obviously if you shave a little bit off, then come with a mustache and take it off and that change a little bit more well accepted. And so it's also about being conscious of the fact that change takes time and that building that POV will take time as well.

Cole Heilborn (43:23):

Yeah. Can you share your 80 20 rule when it comes to creativity and the culture around satisfy? What is it and what's the principle behind it?

Daniel Groh  (43:33):

Yeah. So the 80 20 rule, also known as the Happy Accident internally, is a framework that we like to do as we plan out our six to 12 year plans where we'll build everything out to 80%. So 80% of the drops will be locked in a year in advance. All of the experiences that we want to do will be locked in a year in advance, but we always leave 20% of flexibility for our teams to react to cultural moments that we think would be credible to satisfy new signups, new opportunities in the calendar, new ideas that are shared in the hallway. And some of our best work comes out from that. So for example, I think I saw in my run the first edition, an hour and a half before the drop, we decided to do a quick merch shirt. And that's the beauty of 80 20 where everyone's aligned to the mission, no one's saying no, and we're able to execute that. And so things like that allow us to be nimble and quick on our feet. Obviously as we grow bigger as a company, we still need to take that into consideration, and perhaps instead of 80 20, it's 90 10, but it's really about keeping that creative mindset in and allowing us to be flexible and be able to latch onto ideas when we think they're right, because really that's some of where our best ideas come to life.

Cole Heilborn (44:56):

And how do you think through, you use the word content ventilation, how you distribute and the cadence of that, share more about how that works.

Daniel Groh  (45:05):

And so we think about, once again, from the guest perspective, how much can they really take from us? How much attention do they really want to give? And so the way we're telling our stories really is in a way where we feel that they can give us their undivided attention. And so if I'm going from let's say an athlete win then into a major campaign and then into a big selling campaign, that's a lot for our guest space to understand. And so what we try and do is really map out the whole ecosystem for satisfy and understand, okay, where are we trying to make the impacts? And so something that we've started to do from a kind of commercial perspective that now impacts content is this idea of drips and drops, right? And so drops are big major moments for us, whether that's a commercial moment, an experience moment, a cultural moment, and drips are the little moments in between that allow us to stay top of mind and say, Hey, we're satisfied.

(46:01):

We're still here. So those will be moments where we're guiding our guests through technologies that we've released, updating 'em and say, Hey, Cole, you love oral light. Here's a new colorway. But we're very conscious of the fact that the big moments, the news that we want to share for the season, they're very much condensed into drops that people can kind of consume in a way that's quite healthy. We don't want to just keep banging content around. And so we work with our experience teams, our cultural marketing teams, our athlete teams, to really understand what's the story you want to tell over the nine months? And then make sure that we're building that in a way that feels organic and true and also respective of people's time and attention, and also the other moments that are happening around. And we look to what our peers in this space are doing, like, okay, we know that there's going to be this a big attempt here.

(46:52):

There's UTMB here. This is the moment that we slide in, or sometimes you don't really care and say, okay, we know everyone's going to do this. We're going to zag and do something that's completely off. And so it's really just taking a step back, mapping everything out. And I think that becomes a lot more difficult and bigger brands or everything's more siloed. The beauty about satisfies that the brand function sits transversly, and we're sat into every single department's meetings. So we're able to chime in and say, Hey, production, hey design, we have an opportunity for a 20% project right here. This is how we can tap into that. And that gets cascaded down into my team and say, how do we make this happen from a brand perspective? And so it's about looking at the picture, understanding how all these moments work together from an attention, but also at the end of the day, we're a business. So from a purchasing power perspective and making sure that everything feels like there's enough breathing room in between each drop and in between the drips as well.

Cole Heilborn (47:50):

Gotcha. What's the value of building an audience as a brand?

Daniel Groh  (47:55):

I think this is something that we talk a lot about, especially with as we shift to a brand that sells out within 24 hours and a brand that needs to be always in stock and bringing new guests. I think what we're trying to build is we have an audience, but then what we're really good at is also building fans. And so I think right now everyone that follows Satisfy, I would like to say, is a fan. Now we need to build an audience, if that makes sense. And so I think we're building it from other brands, how they have audiences and they have less fans. I think we have a huge fan base, and now we need to build our audience out. How do we start bringing more audience members and turning those audience guests, if you will, like to say into fans. And so I think we're almost doing it the opposite way, where we've come from this cult following, it's more of like, oh, do you know what satisfy is to now getting to a stage where people are familiar with us as a brand and be like, oh yeah, that's that running brand with the holy shirts, or that's that running brand that's as running cult member to turning those audience members because technically they are a part of our audience.

(49:03):

They know who we are and to fans of the brand and people that won, and this is what we talked about previously in the intro call to fans of the brand doesn't mean you have to consume. And I want to make that super clear to everyone listening, where you can be a fan of a brand and not be able to consume that brand because of whatever, maybe monetary capabilities or whatever, or geographical availability, whatever. But how do we turn them into fans? And then once they're fans, then how do we help them convert into buying product as well? But so it's that journey that we're looking at to say, okay, awareness is acquired, you're an audience member. Now how do we turn to something that's going to champion what we're trying to do here at Satisfy and really talk about us every time we do a drop really? You know what I mean? I would love our fans to be like, Hey, Cole, did you see that satisfy drop? That was really cool. And you could also say, I was really cool, or I preferred blah, blah, blah. I'm not here to dictate what emotions need to be felt, but it's really about building the opposite way. Now I feel and saying, okay, we have these fans, now we need to build an audience. And then how do we turn those audience members into fans again?

Cole Heilborn (50:12):

Yeah. So what's the difference between an audience and a fan?

Daniel Groh  (50:15):

For me, an audience member is just someone that's just there and that's aware of your brand. A fan is someone that will champion your brand, be able to explain what the brand ethos is, really be able to tell a deeper story about the brand storytelling, basically an extension of who we are as an HQ team. I don't want to use the word ambassadors because that has some weird connotation today of like, oh, you're paid for by the brand. I think there's a really good music parallel where it's just fans and music or those that are going to go to the concert, like audience members are those that just are listening and streaming, right? There's a big difference. And so I think we have a great, we could pack out an arena, but now I just need to get those people and need more people to stream our song, basically. And so it's just like, and then how do we get those people into the arena again? And so I think building awareness of the brand and then building that loyalty and deepening that is something that we definitely want to work on for next year.

Cole Heilborn (51:11):

So you've brought up brand loyalty, and I've heard mixed reviews on loyalty, especially when it comes to Gen Z. Are Gen Z people, are they loyal? Will they be loyal to a brand? What are your thoughts? What have you seen around concept of loyalty based on different generations.

Daniel Groh  (51:32):

I think you're very much correct on the idea of loyalty is not achieved forever. I think you need to consistently be on your toes. I think guests will be loyal as long as you continue to produce great product, great content, great experiences, the moment you get lazy, you'll get dropped. And so that's really our perception on loyalty, where we're always thinking about what's the next thing? And it's that balance of consistency and novelty, right? We've talked a lot about consistency, but we're always thinking about what's that one thing that people are going to talk about in our product range this year, right? We'll still have Motech have all the basics, but what's that one thing that we know our guest space will talk about and that the fans will be excited about? And so I think for us, loyalty is never acquired. It's never gained.

(52:19):

It's something that needs to be built and continuously nourished. And so I agree to you when you say, I think loyalty in the purest sense is dead, right? I think we're seeing so much brand switching that it's something that you need to continuously nourish. And I think it's also understanding that this idea of full brand loyalty doesn't exist anymore. As much as we'd love to see everyone in head to toe satisfy or someone wearing another brand head to toe, we've come to the fact that a certain guest space will do that, but not everyone will. And so how are we making sure that whatever they choose, so for example, if someone chooses us for our shorts, we continue to make sure that we're providing the best shorts for that guest because we don't want to switch them out to, we don't want them to switch out to something else. If someone loves us for our socks and just our socks, amazing. I need to make sure that my socks stay as great as they are for you. And so it's really about understanding the nuances of where we're loyal and where guests are loyal to us and making sure that we're delivering continuously. And then also surprising and delighting every year because everyone else is evolving. So if we stagnant, we're going to lose into someone else.

Cole Heilborn (53:29):

So is the moral to this episode get lazy or you'll get dropped? Is that the big takeaway?

Daniel Groh  (53:35):

That is the big takeaway. Get lazy, get dropped. And I think that's really, it's very difficult. And I mean, we're always onto the next thing, and it's a little bit of the, what's that phrase, the double-edged sword almost, where we don't celebrate our wins enough because we're always thinking about what's next because we know that we can't get lazy or get dropped. And I think that's really what it is, whether that's on product, whether that's on content, whether that's on the experiences we're providing. And even when we go back to, okay, we're showing up to TRE this year, which is our next big event, we're like, okay, we'll have the same build out, but what are the little surprise and delight moments for even if you come, you see it's the same buildout, you'd be like, oh, that's new. And it's just that 10% more that keeps coal engaged and say, okay, the same, satisfying, known, and love.

(54:32):

It's still super beautiful. They added this year, and that's amazing. At UTMB, we had the same setup. We just added the customized four by four fiat panda, which was that one 10% on top. And so we're always looking at, okay, how can we add, what are the little things that we can add because we need to make sure, and earlier I used the word shock and awe. I think the most appropriate thing of how we evaluate whether or not we've done a good job is that have we achieved a before and after in terms of culture, in terms of revenue impact, in terms of engagement on social and everything that we're doing, everything that we're investing in the mandate is that needs to be a very clear before and after. And that doesn't mean everything's linked to sales. And we're a brand that pushes brand first. There just needs to be a clear identification and needle shift on everything that we do, and then we know that it's worth it, and that keeps us going because as soon as we lose the before and after, we can just be like, oh, let's just do what we did last year and it'll be fine. And that's when you get dropped because forgiveness is very hard. Forgiveness is very hard, and so you might as well just keep going and make sure you don't have to say sorry.

Cole Heilborn (55:51):

Interesting. If you had to start to try to, I mean, there's a lot more we could talk about, but we could probably do four or five episodes. But for the sake of time, if you had to start to wind things down for us and summarize some of the takeaways that you've shared so far, would you, because frankly, it's kind of been a fire hose of an episode, folks who are listening are probably going to go back and listen through twice. But if you had to reiterate any kind of big ideas that you'd want to leave folks with, what would you want to leave them with?

Daniel Groh  (56:20):

Very good question. I'd like to leave with probably three things. Make content and make experiences and make product that you genuinely enjoy as a person. I think we forget that at the end of the day, we need to make stuff that we're proud of and that we believe that we will enjoy and that your peers will enjoy. Number two, don't be creative because you need to be creative. I think we often overlook the fact that simplest ideas are often the best executed and the most engaging. I think there's this fear of, oh, this isn't creative enough. We're not going to do it. We believe at satisfy. I think we're not the only company to apply this. Virgil Ablo calls this the 3% rule. We call it the twist, where by changing something slightly, an idea that people are familiar with, an experience that people are familiar with, changing it slightly is enough for them to create a new reaction and a new way of experiencing that.

(57:23):

And so don't overthink it. Don't do two twists because two twists. You lose somebody, one twist, you get them engaged. So that's the second thing that I'd like to leave. And the third thing that I'd like to leave everyone with is it's okay to be emotional. It's okay to be able to show emotion. It's okay to be able to show anger, fear, excitement, pain. I think there are different ways of doing that for different sizes of brands, but demonstrating emotion demonstrates impact and demonstrates care. And I think in a world where everything feels like it's very well produced and very much calibrated, I think being emotional is a welcome vulnerability from your guest space that they'll expect and really want to enjoy. So those are the three things, and then if I do a bonus, simplicity, just keep it simple. But yeah, it is been really fun chatting through us all of you. I agree. We could have done a couple more episodes, but those are the three plus one takeaways from today's chat.

Cole Heilborn (58:30):

Incredible. Daniel, thank you so much. If you're open to it, where can folks find you if they want to follow along, if they want to try and pick up more wisdom and insights from you?

Daniel Groh  (58:42):

Yeah, I don't have social, the only social that I have is my LinkedIn, so you can find me on LinkedIn. It's Daniel Grow. I don't have a photo. So as I was telling Cole earlier on, this is the first time that I'm on video, so you'll find me in my little blue indigo circle. That's me. I usually share the projects that I'm working on, A couple little insights. But yeah, you can find me there and hopefully I'll do a couple more of these as well to share a little bit more.

Cole Heilborn (59:08):

Awesome. Thank you so much, Daniel. I've really appreciated it. I've got a lot to learn here. Awesome. Thanks. Hope you have a great rest of your day.

Daniel Groh  (59:14):

Thanks, you too. Bye-Bye.

Cole Heilborn (59:16):

Thank you for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please consider sharing it with a friend or leaving us a review on Apple. And remember, as you're working on that next piece of creative, the difference between creative that works and doesn't work often comes down to the hard questions that you ask while you're shaping it.

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