Cole Heilborn (00:00):

Where does this concept of how much control do you give?Where do you see that going? Could it cause a problem?

MJ Carroll (00:06):

Yeah, I think any brand has that challenge or that dangerthat you could just dilute it. Everyone's chasing more numbers, right? You'rechasing like a larger market, so you just have to be careful to manicure yourbrand and keep true to who you are before you're chasing the Walmart deal orbeing in Target or Costco. I think that that has to be really strategic and forus, it will always be somewhat of comfort in the outdoors or comfort away fromhome like that is what we're about

Cole Heilborn (00:41):

On this podcast. We go behind the scenes with industryexperts as they break down what it takes to produce creative work that works.If you're seeking insights from some of the sharpest minds of the industry,this is your guidebook to producing creative work that actually delivers.Welcome to the Backcountry Marketing Podcast. Today I'm sitting down with MJCarroll. She is the brand director for Hest. MJ, welcome to the show.

MJ Carroll (01:03):

Thanks for having me, Cole. Excited to be here.

Cole Heilborn (01:06):

Yeah, it's good to see you. How are you doing?

MJ Carroll (01:09):

I'm great. Yeah, it's starting to be summer around here,so enjoying all the activities and staying busy with work, so it's great.

Cole Heilborn (01:19):

Well, I'm excited to dive into our topic for today. Whenyou and I connected on our intro call, you had posed a really interestingconcept or dynamic, this question of, as a brand director, how much do Icontrol the brand and how much do I let the community help build and dictatethe brand? And I think that's a really fascinating question and one thatprobably doesn't have a very clear cut answer, but I'd love to dig into thatwith you and see if we can provide some ideas, some answers for folks who maybehave similar questions as they're managing and guiding their own brands. So Iguess the first question to kick us off, why is this something you think about?

MJ Carroll (01:57):

That's a great question to start off. Yeah, I've beenspinning around a lot with it ever since I started with Hest, to be honest. So Heststarted in 2019 by Aaron and Buske in Seattle. Just out of the pain point ofnot being able to sleep well in the outdoors, I was able to jump in on boardwith Hest at a very really early stage of the brand and kind of lead what thebrand vision was going to be. They had a great starting platform. They alreadyhad a tagline, but really I've seen the development of this brand from theinception to where it is today. I think that there's just a lot of balancebetween your vision and then also learning from your community. And then morerecently since you and I talked, I've been listening to the Let Them Theory byMel Robbins, which is just about letting go of control and let them just letthem do what they want to do. You don't have to control everything, and thisspeaks to all avenues of life. It's not just being a brand director, but it'sbeing in relationship, it's being in friendship, it's working with coworkers. It'sjust letting people bring their ideas and their actions to the table andletting them do what they want to do and not letting yourself have to controlthat. So I think that's just an important factor to consider in life, in work,and outside of work.

Cole Heilborn (03:27):

Interesting. Okay. There's a number of things we could digin there. I guess first though, back up. So over the last few years as you'vebeen stewarding the brand, what are specific intersections that you have?Questions, gosh, how much do I control? How much do I not control? Could youframe that around specific examples? You mentioned content is one. What aresome others?

MJ Carroll (03:48):

Yeah, I think content is a great place to just kind ofdive deeper and dissect theirs, that I come from the action sports industry. Icome from the era of the Yeti curated videos and just having to have thesebeautiful, I come from the ski industry, just having beautiful ski acting anddeep powder and just this frothy content that just makes you want to go dothese action sports, where then I come to the crossroads of UGC content, whichcan be just very, it's authentic. Yes, and it's unfiltered, but it's just sofar different from what I was used to in my past career that I think that kindof just hit me at that crossroads of like, okay, maybe I don't need thisbeautifully curated content. I need to listen to the community and people wantto talk to people, they want to be relatable.

(04:42):

So I've just kind of had to adapt to that. I think all ofus in marketing, that UGC just came in really fast and was so far differentfrom what we are used to and embracing that and being able to be like, okay,yeah, let's give this product to this person who we don't know and see how theyuse it and see how they film it and then test it and see how it works and seehow it performs. And not having this control of like, okay, I need you to shootit in this light at this setting and say this, and here's the script. Insteadit's like, Hey, here's our product. We like what you do on your channel, showus how you use it and we'll share it and see how it goes. So just kind ofhaving the freedom and just ability to let go of that control and let it go.

(05:29):

So I think content is a great place to start. I think ifanyone's worked at a startup, you just have to let go of control. So manyoutside factors that happen that you're building this brand. There's so manydifferent changes that come. I mean, startup is just full of dynamics of upsand downs and changes, and you thought you would do this and then you'd do thisinstead. Growing the team is all the different things. So I think there's thatthink there's always that central theme of who we are and who we want to be hasto be true to all of us. I mean, before I started working at Hest, I alwaysthought brand was defined by the marketing team, but being in a startup, Ireally realized that brand is defined by the whole team from every touch point.So customer service, website interaction, what they get in their delivery andthe package, the packaging, everything. I mean, that's just so all encompassingof brand. And when you're building a brand, all those touch points matter fromthe entire team, not just the marketing department.

Cole Heilborn (06:38):

Yeah. Was there a particular piece of content in the lastfew years that was one of those kind of intersection, crossroads, where youcame to the table anticipating or expecting or wanting something different onlyto then realize that maybe something that you hadn't even considered wasactually the best route forwards? Do you have an example of that?

MJ Carroll (07:00):

I can't think of a particular one. It just seemed like theflood of UGC came in so fast, like that selfie, I'm standing in a closet, not agreat place, and I'm talking about gear. It just felt so out of context to meor in a garage, and they weren't even out on the adventure. It just felt like,but again, it was real and authentic and it was real. People talking to realpeople about their experiencing using this. So I think at first it was justcoming in so fast, so many that I was like, okay, this is the trend. We'regoing with it and just letting go of it. So I can't say particularly any pieceof content that I can think of that we produce, particularly on the brand sidethat I was like, this is different. I think it's more just that flood of UGCcontent.

Cole Heilborn (07:49):

Gotcha. What is this theory of letting go or what's thisbook you're referencing?

MJ Carroll (07:55):

Mel Robbins, she's a really popular podcaster and author,but she just talks about let them theory and it's, again, I think that all ofus hold these expectations in work, in relationship every day when you're justtiming out your day and how you want it to go. But in reality, your day doesn'talways go the way that you want it to, and that is inflicted by other people'sdecisions and the way they want their lives to go and their expectations forthe day. So when you have that conflict of what you want and what your visionis and what they have their vision of, and your expectations are let down, youhold the power within yourself to just let that go. So you're letting go of thecontrol of your expectations and you're letting giving permission to that personor that situation to just play out.

Cole Heilborn (08:49):

Yeah, that's something I've learned working with editorsall the time is the dynamic between how much do you guide, how much do you letthem run with the direction.

MJ Carroll (08:58):

Totally.

Cole Heilborn (08:59):

And there's a balance for sure, where sometimes you haveto step in and say, no, I think we've gotten off track. But there's anotherside of it all where you let the editor just run with it. And if it's notbreaking the vision or the goal or the intention of the project and they have adifferent solution than I do, I find that it's best to give them the authorityto make that call and to let us run with it. The trick is how do you know, inyour case, how do you know when you've given too much rope or when the creativecontrol has gone too far and it's now way out of bounds? What are some of thoselines in the sand that you have discovered that you try and stick to?

MJ Carroll (09:44):

I think that a founding or a North Star for Hest hasalways been product, like the features and the way that it was developed andthe intended use has always been really a guiding light for Hest. I mean, thefounder, Aaron Buske is a product genius. That's his thing. He loves to developand design products. So anytime that our products are kind of taken out ofcontext and is not used properly or is not for the intended purpose of tryingto sleep better in the outdoors, that's definitely a line in the sand for me.Like, okay, this is not actually the intended use of this. So it's prettyrudimentary, honestly, just the intended use of the product I think is big. ButI think just making sure that we're being an inviting and encompassing brandthat's just, we're not intimidating. I don't want to be an intimidating brandat all. I like to think that we're activity agnostic. As long as you're goingoutdoors and enjoying nature, we want you to enjoy it. However that is, as longas you're, we want it to be a good steward of the land. We do believe in justbeing good stewards when you're outdoors, appreciating public land. So we dohave values, I would say our boundaries, our product and values, and just beinga good person and a good brand and showing up that way.

Cole Heilborn (11:15):

Is there any part of you that's concerned that over timedown the road that the brand could become too diluted? I guess I asked thatbecause I'm genuinely curious, where does this concept of how much control doyou give? Where do you see that going? Could it cause a problem?

MJ Carroll (11:36):

Yeah, I think any brand has that challenge or that dangerthat you could just dilute it If you're going, everyone's chasing more numbers,right? You're chasing a larger market, and we've started out at Hest kind ofdefaulted into this growing overland community that's just kind of really grownrobustly in the last five to 10 years. And we really found a niche in that, andit's been really successful for us. And then we've expanded more. Obviouslywe're camping, that kind of goes hand in hand, but I feel like Overlanding isthis really tight community within the camping, larger camping sector. And thenwe launched our pro travel pillow, which has got us more into travel. I thinkthat that's always the people that go camping are likely going to do adventure travelas well. So I feel like we play in a lot of similar categories, but then I justfeel like you're always chasing that mainstream.

(12:38):

How can I get more eyeballs? How can I get larger reach?So you just have to be careful to manicure your brand and keep true to who youare before you're chasing the Walmart deal or being in Target or Costco. Ithink that that has to be really strategic. I'm not saying that it's not wrongfor every brand to get in there and test it and get more visuals, but I justthink that you just have to come back to your values and just be true to whoyou are and what you stand for. And for us, it will always be somewhat ofcomfort in the outdoors or comfort away from home. That is what we're about,which is pretty broad reaching when you think about it. But we just want tobring the comforts of home to the outdoors or wherever you roam or journey,whether that's on an airplane or a car or a train or a boat, which can bebroad. But I think that if we hold true to who we are and our features and ourpremium brand, I don't think that we're threatened by diluting it. I think wejust need to stay true to that.

Cole Heilborn (13:46):

So by the time this episode comes out, the previousepisode is an episode we did with Christopher Card, and one of the things heand I talked about was this idea how good tension is around ideas in themarketing department, in the creative department. And the idea is that ifeveryone thinks that the idea is great, then it's actually probably not a verygood idea, but you need tension. You need someone to be opposed to it. You needsomeone who doesn't like it because that means that hopefully it actually, there'ssomething to it. There's depth, there's something creative about it. There'ssomething that rubs people the right way and rubs other people the wrong way.And I'm curious if you can speak more to that tension that sometimes you feel,how do you navigate through that with your team and yeah, how do you determine,is this just my personal feeling, what is right for the brand? What is unquoteright for mj? How do you discern between those?

MJ Carroll (14:43):

Definitely. Yeah. We talk about tension a lot on our teamtoo. So in the marketing department, there's actually just only two of us,myself, bran, and then my coworker John is the director of digital. And so ourboss, Aaron always talks about how there should be tension between us. I'm verygrateful. John and I work phenomenally together. I mean, I can't say enoughgreat things about him, but he is more of the performance, e-commerce, lookingat sales. And I am more of the brand filter. So there's definitely tensionbetween us on those two things when you come up to it. But I think we alwayshear each other out and we ultimately can always find a middle ground. I thinksometimes one of us concedes or one of us, or he can easily, that's thedifference between performance marketing and brand, is he has the tangible, Ihave the intangible so he can show me direct results of, you may not like thisad, but it's performing really well, so we should keep it on for another fewmonths.

(15:47):

And then my argument on the other side is like, okay, wellwhat's the best investment long-term for our brand? What do we want out there?And I know that I've been speaking a lot about not having giving up on control,but I do strongly believe in a big realm and theme of consistency is just soimportant when it comes to brands. So just always coming back and having thatHUS filter, is our product being shown, is this talking to our brand values andjust making sure that it's not off brand. I mean, I'm totally open toexperimenting new content with performance data and seeing what it will do, butI agree exactly with that tension, I think it's really healthy. I would notwant to be on a marketing team or a team in general that was just like greenlight, everything you do is great.

(16:43):

I don't want that. I want people to give me feedback andtell me why they think that it should be tweaked or changed or maybe it's wrongthat we're only going to grow as if we get constructive feedback. So I feellike we have a really close knit team at Hest. We're pretty small team, butthere's a lot of marketing topics that I just pass by and I'm like, Hey, whatdo you think about this? I want your feedback. What do you think? Even ifyou're in finance or you're in the warehouse or you're customer service, we'reall speaking to the same brand. We're all building this together. So I thinkit's really important. And plus, I want them to be proud to work at hest. Iwant them to stand behind what we're producing as a brand for content. I wantthem to be identify with it and be like, yeah, that's awesome. I totallyappreciate what you're creating and not totally resonates with the brand thatwe're working for. So it's really important to have buy-in from the whole team.But I do appreciate that tension and we do experience that for sure, and Ithink that's completely healthy.

Cole Heilborn (17:46):

It seems like there's always tension between performanceand brand, and I understand why, but I also don't understand why they can't getalong better and why this working towards a middle ground of brand performancecan't be, I dunno, I don't want to say it's not attainable or brands don't doit because brands do do it. But what's the best example you've seen of brandand performance working side by side, working really strong together, either atyour time with Hest or at previous roles?

MJ Carroll (18:18):

I think I'm so intimate with it with Hest just becauseit's probably been one of the more stronger D two C brands that I've workedwith, which I think when you bring in D two C and e-commerce, e-commercedefinitely has a bigger place at the table in terms of working together. Anexample of what works well is I do think that content is a shared piece that wework on together. I'll be the one that creates the creative brief and do a lotof the pre-production work with the photo shoot and kind of set the vision forit. But I always love to have John, we're doing a shoot next week together forone product, and I have him there on right next to me. He is, yes, I need itvertically for this, I need it. He's thinking like web banners, he's thinkingpaid ads, and I'm thinking, okay, what are the bigger brand assets that we'regoing to use for this? So to have us work side by side in tandem when we'recreating content is so important. And he's always on his iPhone capturingvertical video wherever we can use it. And I'm directing the photographer andthen the videographer. So I think content is a great place that we can bothwork together on to brand performance or brand tension, whatever, however youcoined that. I think that's a good place to start.

Cole Heilborn (19:42):

Well, it seems like there's this idea out there. Maybeit's a myth, maybe it's not that performance erodes brand and brand doesn'tsupport performance, and they're seen as these two, it's like water and oil.They don't want to mix. At least that's how I interpret it and how I hear aboutit. But it seems like they could be working so much better together. And Iguess I'm just speaking generally, I dunno, what have you seen out there in theindustry?

MJ Carroll (20:12):

I mean, speaking it on behalf of a startup, you can'tsurvive with one or the other. I could see that tension just building andbuilding with bigger brands, and especially when you bring in corporatepolicies and certain things that really affect bigger brands. I could see thattension bubbling to even a bigger challenge. But I feel like with a startup, wecouldn't survive without performance marketing and performance Marketingcouldn't survive without brand. They are so necessary. It's the yin and the yangand finding that happy medium between the two is just so important. So Ideeply, deeply value the tools and the tactics and the data and everything thatwe can gain from performance marketing. I think in my career it's just beenexponential how much that has grown. I think that the key is just not being soinfluenced by the numbers all the time that you're just chasing what that isand just still believing in the intangible of the brand and the power of thebrand and the power of being creative. You always need to be creative when itcomes. That's the freedom of the brand side is that you're going to create newcontent, you're going to create new campaigns, new messaging, and you're goingto test it. And then performance is going to tell you over time if that's goingto work or not. And I think just having an adaptable team that's willing totake those chances and those risk on the brand side and then learning from iton the performance side.

Cole Heilborn (21:51):

How important or not important is brands in a startup?

MJ Carroll (21:58):

I mean, you're talking to someone that's spent her careerin brand. So obviously I'm going to say that it's very important, but luckily Ihave a team that also really believes in brand. I mean, anyone can go andcreate the same products. I mean, there's patents in place for sure, butknockoffs happen all the time. People can always create a product at a reducedprice. But at the end of the day, if you don't have that community and thatbrand experience that you've built, you cannot replicate brand. If you reallyinvest in brand and you follow through with what your vision is, what yourmission is, and create the right content, the content that reflects that, andthen the community that creates from that, you cannot buy. And that is whybrand is so important from day one. And then continuing to invest in brand isso important because no one can take that away from you. They can take yourproducts away from you or they can rip it off or they can duplicate it or theycan create something better or they can try to, but they can't take brand away.

Cole Heilborn (23:06):

One of the things that I've noticed and heard is just Casthas such a great community of people out there, huge supporters, huge fans whoare willing to advocate and share the product and spread the product around topeople who don't know about it. And one of the elements that's so necessary forowned content, branded content is a really strong community. And you've got thecommunity piece, and I know you guys have done some branded content projects.You've started doing the Rigs We Dig series, which seems like it's a great ideaand it's a cool concept. People seem to be liking it. What are other ways thatyou would like to try and create more content around and for your community?You've done the hard part building the community now. How can you produce contentto reach that community further?

MJ Carroll (23:57):

Yeah, that's I think always bringing in our communitywherever we can. We have created Festival, which is not content, but it is anevent. It's an annual festival where we went on Apple Orchard in Colorado. Andto me, I come from the event world. I used to have an experiential agency andwhile it may not have the reach that content has or that paid social has that,it does create a lot of amazing content for us because it is our community. Sowe gather and we do a three day camping weekend with a ton of activities. Andthat has just been blossomed into a really beautiful annual experience that Ithink is just so important for our community because there's so many onlineforums that you can join. And I think that we have our Facebook group and wehave a great community on social media, and you can do all of these digitalthings, but until you actually go camping with your customers and share thatexperience with them, there's really nothing that can replicate the power ofthat and understanding hearing from them and their feedback.

(25:14):

I love going to events too. I think we invest in a lot ofevents and showing up around the nation wherever we can because our productsare so experiential. Once you try our phone, people are like, oh my gosh, Ihave to go sleep on this. I don't know why I've been sleeping on an airmattress, but they'll switch. But the best part is seeing that community showup at these events and they literally sell the products for me. These customerscome up and they're like, oh my gosh, you have to get this. You have to getthis. We do this and it fits in here. And I just take a step back and I'm like,all right, I promise I'm not giving this person commission, but they're sellingit for it. So yeah, I didn't really answer your question about content, but Ido think that that showing up in your communities experientially allows you tounderstand your community better and thus understand the customer and createcontent for them and hear their feedback and what they're saying and beinginspired by them. Because we're all working remotely. We're all working behindthese screens. We're all looking at other content that other brands arecomparing themselves to and thinking that we need to go do this and that. Butwhen you just sit back and you listen to your community and you see how theyinteract with your products and your brand, you become way more inspired towant to create for them, whatever that may be.

Cole Heilborn (26:35):

Yeah, I mean the first step of creating anything that'sworthwhile is knowing who you're creating it for. I mean, you've got such anawesome way to meet those people, to interact with them, to get to know them,knowing what you know about your community and in a perfect world, what wouldyou want to create for them? What ideas have you guys kicked around before

MJ Carroll (26:54):

Going back to that health and wellness and just tappinginto that emotion of being outdoors and sleeping well? Our tagline is, playmore sleep well, and it's simple, but there's a lot of depth for that too,because you go outside to play or to relax or whatnot, but you really can't dothat unless you sleep well. I think that the science is there, and if anyonewill tell you if you have a good night's sleep, you're just going to performbetter the next day. It's the best performance enhancing drug naturally thatthere is sleep. So I think just tapping into that emotion of and creatingcontent of if you sleep well in the outdoors, so you're not even at the hustlebustle of your own home or your own job, but you're out in nature, whetherthat's in your van, your camper or ground tent, cowboy, camping under the starsand you sleep well and you wake up and you can take in the power and beauty ofthe outdoors, imagine how much that could change people's perspectives.

Cole Heilborn (28:05):

I had a crazy idea while you're just talking, and I don'tknow if this has anything, but I was like, what if, okay, bear with me. What iffor a content series, it was live streams of people sleeping for eight hours inthe outdoors, those Netflix, you can turn on a fireplace on Netflix. Totally.It'd be something like that. It'd be like this beautiful scenery, this epiclocation, and then it's someone just sleeping for eight hours and it's real. Idunno, I don't know who would watch that for eight hours, but it'd be prettyintriguing.

MJ Carroll (28:39):

It could be in the background. But yeah, if anyone outthere has a connection with Aura Ring, I'd love a partnership with them. I'dlove to test our product with Ora Rings in the outdoors and how well peoplesleep. Well, because a lot of people talk about their sleep scores in themorning, and I have a feeling that Hest would be pretty competitive when itcame to the sleep score.

Cole Heilborn (29:01):

That's a great idea.

MJ Carroll (29:03):

Yeah,

Cole Heilborn (29:03):

That's a really good idea. I want to come back to an idea.Yesterday I had an intro call with the chief brand officer at Satis five, therunning company, and he was talking about the distinction internally that theyuse of language, the idea of they call their customers guests and they neverrefer to them as customers. They refer to them as guests because, well, there'sa lot of reasons why he talked about, and I'd recommend folks tuning into thatepisode if they want to learn why. But there's something about the idea ofhospitality, something about the idea of comfort, about creating an experiencefor an individual as a guest versus a customer. And I was thinking about Hest.I was like, you guys are the equivalent of a hotel outside. If you thoughtabout your customers as guests and maybe you do, how would that change how youinteract or how you build community with them?

MJ Carroll (29:55):

I love that. That's a great idea. Yeah, we joke that mybrother-in-law calls it Welcome to the Hest Western, the Best Western.

Cole Heilborn (30:02):

And

MJ Carroll (30:03):

My other friend says, oh, I just had another best Nightsleep or Hest night sleep. So we joke about that, but I do love thinking aboutit as a guest. I think that we are very community focused. We definitely valuethe feedback of our customers. The customer is always right, but reframing itto a guest is, I really like that. That's a great idea. And for sure, I thinkthat we do want people to check into the Hest Western and have a greatexperience and write a five star review afterwards. So I love that reframing. Ithink that's a really great idea. And I do think that we do our best to treatour customers the best we can. I mean, we have a hundred day night guarantee,so if you sleep on our mattress a hundred nights and you don't like it, we'lltake it back. No questions asked. So we understand it's a big investment inpurchase, but we also know that there is no price tag when it comes to goodsleep. It's so important. So yeah.

Cole Heilborn (31:09):

Yeah, it's interesting. I had never considered that beforeand I was like, oh, I'm going to take note of that. That's a good mental shiftto consider.

MJ Carroll (31:17):

Yeah, thanks for sharing.

Cole Heilborn (31:19):

What's a brand you admire who is currently doing thingsthe wrong way, but they're performing really well, they're breaking all of thebest practices. Maybe they're pursuing worst practices, but it's interesting,it's engaging. Is there anyone out there that you're noticing?

MJ Carroll (31:38):

That's a good question. I mean, I've always just laughedat the marketing at Pit Viper. I think it's hilarious. I have some brands orfriends that have worked there before they've blown up, but I guess I'mreferring to their earlier ages of marketing when they were first coming outand rollerblading on the floors of SIA and just bringing a boombox and just notreally totally just zigging when everyone was zagging and just being somethingtotally different and ridiculous. And I just admire brands that can really nailhumor. I think I talked about this on the last call. It's really hard to nailhumor if you have a good, I remember I was following Marine Layer, that apparelcompany, lifestyle company out of California, and they had the most hilariouscopywriters. I wanted to open up their newsletter every time. And then thecopywriter, I guess left and they were putting the job description on a, andthey said that their copywriter was moving to France, and they're like, youcannot like French people.

(32:45):

You cannot like croissants and you cannot like champagnebecause we can't lose you to France like our last copywriter. And it was justso funny. And I will say their copy is good, but it's not as good as thiscopywriter that apparently moved to France. And it just kind of captured myeyes and my attention because of their humor. So I really appreciate and valuea brand that can nail humor, and I guess that's not doing it wrong in your waythat you're asking that question, but it is hard to depend on one person that'sa humorous copywriter that they're going to stay there forever because noweveryone's turning to chat GBT for copy and trying to personalize it and makeit sound like them or sound like they wrote it. But I just really, I think thathumor is irreplaceable and it's really hard to find. So if you find a humorouscopywriter, you should promote 'em

Cole Heilborn (33:44):

And hang on to 'em

MJ Carroll (33:45):

And hang on to 'em. Yes.

Cole Heilborn (33:48):

What's something you used to believe about brand buildingthat you no longer believe to be true outside of this concept of maintainingcontrol?

MJ Carroll (33:59):

I think that I had someone we work with Kevin Luby. He'snow at High Camp Flask. He's brilliant, but I think I was doing this reallymeticulous go-to-market plan, and I had to make sure that everything was rightand the T's were dotted and the T's were crossed and the i's were dotted andeverything was buttoned up. And he kind of just told me on the phone, he islike, you know what? 80% is good enough. Just ship it. You got it. Just go withit. It's better to get it out there and learn from it than be a hundred percentperfect because it's never going to be a hundred percent perfect. There's goingto be something that needs to be tweaked or changed or feedback or someone maynot like the color or whatever. I think in the world of e-commerce and D two Cand the fast paced world that we're living in with social media and everythingis just get it out there and learn from it.

Cole Heilborn (34:57):

One of the things we've been doing lately on the show isthis idea of wrapping up around the concept of failure and sharing things thatwe haven't done so well, things that we've failed at, things that we'relearning. What are some things that you have failed at that have been goodlearning experiences?

MJ Carroll (35:16):

I think that our third annual festival was probably themost difficult thing I've done in my career. We had amazing first two years,ethic, weather, just great music, all the things. And the third year, it wasthe worst weather ever. It just rained and rained and rained. And I remember myfriend's kids came and they were just full of mud, and I was like, oh my gosh,she has to camp with them tonight. And then there was a bridge. It's in thewestern slope of Colorado, and we had a lot of people coming from Crested Butteand Gunnison, and this bridge that's been there for 50 years decided that itwas not engineering sound for people to cross. So we lost a lot of customersthrough that. And then our headliner for the Saturday Night Headliner Showdidn't make it from Stagecoach. She was sick.

(36:09):

And so I had to cancel the Headliner show, and it was justone thing after another, and I just crawled in our hest van and cried. I waslike, this is the worst experience. I want this to go away so badly. And Iremember I left and I was like, I'm never doing this again. I'm never doingHest. All this is the worst idea. I just blew my marketing budget. It was just,but then I got all this feedback that the community who showed up that weekendhad the best time. They're like, that is so great. I'm coming back next year.And so slowly every month people would be like, timidly, how do you feel aboutSSTable vendors and the venue and my coworkers? And I was like, I don't know. Ican't talk about it. I just can't talk about it too much. PSD, I can't do it.

(36:57):

And so then finally I was like, okay, I am open to doingit. And we planned our fourth annual, which was this last May, and we threadedthe needle with the weather, but it was 75 and sunny. The music was amazing,just everything. The vibe was so on point, and I was like, okay, this is why wedo this. And I got over the trauma of that third year. I think it will alwaysbe in the back of my mind of things that can go wrong at events. But I wouldsay that that was one of the harder things. It just was out of my controlhonestly. It was weather and musicians and all these things

Cole Heilborn (37:36):

And bridge failure.

MJ Carroll (37:37):

The bridge failure, just everything was an epic fail, butit wasn't. And my team was so positive and reminded me that we had a greattime. Everyone we talked to had a great time, and it was those people thatshowed up and proved that it is about this community that's making thisexperience so positive. So yeah,

Cole Heilborn (37:59):

That's a good one. As we start to wrap up, what are somequestions that you're asking yourself, questions that you are curious about?

MJ Carroll (38:10):

I think, yeah, just that questions of not how to notdilute your brand, but how to have a greater reach. I want to, with our protravel pillow, I think it's like, I'm biased, but I think it's the best productwe make. I fall asleep in the middle row on an airplane all the time, but Iwant to be able to tap into that customer who's in the middle seat and wants tosleep well on a five hour flight, but maybe doesn't camp, or is turned off bycamping or intimidated by it. So I want to create this channel of content andacquisition where we can speak to that customer and they don't land on ourwebsite and be like, oh, I'm not a camper. This is not me. I, I'm going to goaway. I want to capture that person, have them try that travel pillow and belike, oh my God, yeah, this is amazing. I'm going to gift it to everyone forChristmas because we all fly and we all need to go places. So I think that'ssomething top of mind for me is to just capture these audiences, thesecustomers who can value a good night's sleep, but we don't have be this, theydon't have to be a hardcore outdoor enthusiast, but again, towing that line ofnot diluting our brand and staying true to who we are, but tapping into morecustomers that way. So that's definitely on my mind, for sure.

Cole Heilborn (39:31):

Yes, very much so.

MJ Carroll (39:33):

Yeah.

Cole Heilborn (39:34):

Mj, if you had to summarize the conversation and summarizesome of the insights and things that we've chatted about for folks, how wouldyou wrap it up?

MJ Carroll (39:42):

Well, I think that talking about the control issue, Imean, I don't know, maybe people have gotten by in their lives with not havingexpectations and not trying to control. But I guarantee if you're in a directorposition and you've grown brands before, you do have that sense of control. AndI think that allowing yourself to just take a step back and listen to thepeople around you and more importantly to your community, and you can keepcontrol through consistency and your values and what the brand is that you'rebuilding, but I think there's a lot to be learned if you just take a step backand learn from everyone around you. So I think that's really important. Gosh,what else did we talk about? I think just being open to creating new contentand seeing how it goes and performing it, but using it for performance.

(40:35):

I mean, we don't have a huge budget, but we stilldefinitely have the freedom to have creativity and try new things. And I thinkthat's always important, especially when you're trying to grow a brand and showup in different places. I don't think events are dead. I know that events havekind of died down, and I mean, I'll die on this sword, but I do just feel likeexperiential is so important and you're not going to be able to report to theCFO numbers of, sure, you can sell products at these events, but for us, it maytake that person who just discovered our brand at this event. It may take them60 to a hundred days to come back and decide. It may take 'em two years to comeback, but we made that impression on them and it's so important. So I just feellike in this digital world, face-to-face experiences with brands that are trulyjust not about selling the product, but just getting to know that person andthem getting to know you and what you stand for and the products that you'vebuilt and what you're displaying. I love in-person events. I think that they'reso powerful and I think that it's important for brands to keep doing that.

Cole Heilborn (41:54):

Incredible. Mj, thank you so much for the time. Thanks forsharing your thoughts. If folks want to follow along with you or with Hest,where can they find you?

MJ Carroll (42:04):

Yeah, I am not the most active on LinkedIn, but I'm there.I was my New Year's resolution to be more active on LinkedIn, so I replied toyour dm, which I felt good about. But I am on there at MJ Carroll, and you cansearch me with through Hest or also not as active on social media as I used to,but I'm at M Janers on Instagram. Or if anyone has collaboration or ideas oranything you want to reach out to, I'm happy to email as mj@Hest.com.

Cole Heilborn (42:37):

Awesome. Thank you so much. Hope you have a great rest ofyour day. And yeah, maybe we'll just leave it to, this sounds like there's somecool things on the horizon for Hest, so stay tuned tunes because there's someneat stuff rolling out Absolutely. In the near future.

MJ Carroll (42:51):

Awesome. Thanks, Cole.

Cole Heilborn (42:52):

All Right. Have a great rest of your day.

MJ Carroll (42:53):

You too. Thank you. Bye bye.

Cole Heilborn (42:55):

Thank you for listening to this episode. If you enjoyedit, please consider sharing it with a friend or leaving us a review on Apple.And remember, as you're working on that next piece of creative, the differencebetween creative that works and doesn't work often comes down to the hardquestions that you ask while you're shaping it.