Cole Heilborn (00:00:42):

On this podcast, we go behind the scenes with industry experts as they break down what it takes to produce creative work that works. This show is produced by Port Site, a creative studio that helps outdoor brands produce strategic and emotional video content. Welcome to the Backcountry Marketing Podcast. Today I'm sitting back down with Chris Burkard for part two of our conversation. Chris, it's good to see you.

Chris Burkard (00:01:05):

Good to see you too, Cole. I'm grateful to be back and psyched to have been invited for a part two. Always, always is a good conversation with you and just been grateful to over the last couple of weeks, months, get to know you a little more and stay in touch and yeah, keep chatting. It's awesome.

Cole Heilborn (00:01:21):

Well, I feel like we started a great conversation a couple months ago for folks who haven't listened. That was episode 1 92 and I wanted to kind of pick up where we left off and I was hoping we could talk about creative risk, mitigating risk, emotional resonance and content, and then hit some of the questions that folks submitted from your episode and then end on some failures of yours and what we could learn from them. Yes. So I think we talked a lot about in our last episode, this idea that brands are risk adverse and there's a lot of changes obviously happening in the creative and content world these days. And I would love to start the conversation by asking you what's the greatest risk you've taken in the outdoors and what have you learned from that risk management and how do you apply that to your own creative work?

Chris Burkard (00:02:12):

Do mean, what do you mean by risk in the outdoors? Do you

Cole Heilborn (00:02:14):

Mean

Chris Burkard (00:02:15):

Expedition more of a physical effort or are you talking about more of a business kind of effort? I guess

Cole Heilborn (00:02:24):

I'm talking about purely calculated risk you in nature managing health and life out in the wilderness, because I'm sure you've done that just a few times.

Chris Burkard (00:02:37):

Yeah, I would definitely say riding the tour, divide the bike race that goes basically from Canada to Mexico. It's 2,700 miles, takes about 15, 16 days or 30 days depending on how fast you are. And there were moments on that ride where just I remember vividly riding into a thunderstorm situation where it's like you're looking at a mountain and you're seeing lightning, and you're like, well, I'm choosing willingly to go up there and to do that. And I think I would say that in any effort that's been kind of like an endurance ultra cycling or long distance running situation or whatever. I think that the lesson that I've always come back to, the one that just resonates with me deeply every time is that I am so lucky to be able to choose this discomfort because I think it's important to remember oftentimes we subject ourselves to these experiences.

(00:03:43):

No one forced us to be there. No one forced you to climb that mountain, to climb that wall, to sign up for that marathon, whatever it is. It's like maybe there's the rare occasion where somebody has, I don't know, but at the end of the day, I just think that is such an important thing to consider and it gives perspective to everything else that we say or we think is hard. But honestly, it's funny. I think that the physical risks kind of are not as scary as the financial and business risks in my opinion, because I know this is kind of a unique perspective, maybe one that not everybody shares, but when you're usually enduring a physical risk of some kind, it typically happens all at once. You, whatever, you're riding down a trail and then all of a sudden there's a feature and you're like, you're making this decision immediately or you're stopping evaluating and then making it.

(00:04:40):

It's not one of those risks financially or business where you're like, well, I'm going to go for this thing. I'm going to dedicate this money to make this book, this gallery this, whatever. And then maybe it'll pay off and you watch it slowly maybe not work or be unsuccessful, whatever you want to call it, that's painful because it keeps you up at night. You sweat about it, you think about it, you have anxiety about it. That's the worst kind of pain. I hate that more than anything. Sorry, that's a long-winded answer, but that's the one that gets me the most.

Cole Heilborn (00:05:17):

Yeah. Well, maybe there's something to that maybe that speaks to some of the discomfort and the anxiety around creative risk because it sounds like what you're saying is it's perpetuated, the anxiety isn't just in this an hour moment. It could be over the course of months or six months, expand on that

Chris Burkard (00:05:35):

Many, many, many years. Yeah. Well, I mean, a lot of times you think about pouring your time and energy into something, whether it's this new creative endeavor or this personal project or this new portfolio thing you're building for your, I don't know, your production agency or your photography company or whatever. And a lot of times we don't know when to call it quits. And at least having the perspective where I'm at of having done this many times and starting to see when I know there's a point at which I'm not going to get the return that I'm putting out, that's a scary tipping point. It happens all the time. Every time I make a film, a personal film of some kind, I'm always like, okay, how much money can I invest in this? Is this a 10,000, 20,000, $30,000 or more or larger investment that I'm making or I'm asking of people I don't know if I'm trying to gain that kind of sponsorship, whatever.

(00:06:38):

And then you're trying to evaluate, is this going to create that revenue back and really scary when it's just yourself putting forth that capital, but also scary when you're working alongside other brands or companies or people, and you're often creating expectations that you want to deliver on and not under-delivering or whatnot. So I think that those experiences have taught me lessons and I've seen that play out in a lot of the personal projects that I'm usually doing. And I think it's kind of a crucial part of the creative process to do that. I often think maybe this is a bigger topic for another conversation, part three or something like that, but I really try to consider what it means to actually create art and what that means to be an artist. And I would say that risk is an incredibly important part of that process.

Cole Heilborn (00:07:39):

So one of my questions was should we drop the word creative risk? Should we eliminate the word risk from that meeting? But now you're making me second guess. Maybe we shouldn't.

Chris Burkard (00:07:51):

No, I a hundred percent think we should because creativity should be risky

(00:07:56):

Inherently, it's almost like saying creative, creative. It's like saying the same thing twice almost. And again, this is just a world according to Chris, so you can throw this out with a grain of salt if you want. Totally. But I feel like the scary thing is we need to make art risky again or make creativity risky again. You know what I mean? There has to be skin in the game. And this actually just comes right back to our last conversation, Cole, where it's like we were chatting about some of the other amazing podcast guests and the idea that work in the outdoor industry is being homogenized. It's homogenized because we want to follow suit with those before us who didn't make any failures or we're being intelligent and we're learning from others' mistakes, but directly replicating stuff in an effort to find new results is kind of like, I don't know. Isn't that the

Cole Heilborn (00:08:51):

Definition of insanity?

Chris Burkard (00:08:53):

Of insanity, basically? That's what it feels like. And so I guess, yeah, creative risk is a real topic and something important, but I feel like redefining it a little bit to know that creativity should feel risky.

Cole Heilborn (00:09:07):

What role does that play in the marketing department? Do you see those two as synonymous or because maybe some people would see those too, is we should divide those?

Chris Burkard (00:09:17):

I would say that it can play out in many ways. One of them being that if I was standing in a marketing department right now and I was hearing somebody present an idea, I would want to make sure that somebody in that group of people doesn't agree with that idea or doesn't like that idea. Why? Because the idea needs to have teeth. It needs to have an opinion. And as Yvonne Chenard once said, if you're not pissing off 50% of people, you're not doing your job. And that's the goal. I'm not saying that, I'm not really saying that people in that marketing department should be arguing. It's probably an echo chamber where everybody has similar tolerance for risk. But the point being is that when that work is put out into the world, everybody needs to accept that there are certain consumers who are not going to like this.

(00:10:08):

And that's kind of like the whole point. That's the risk part. If we're approaching this and we are said Fortune 500 company, that's saying like, Hey, we are going to be everything to everybody, then you become vanilla very fast. I'm trying to not spew out brand names right now, but yeah, you become vanilla. And what happens to vanilla? Well, they get phased out of the box stores and then something new comes in and out with the lulu and in with the Vu, who knows? It's all the same shit at the end of the day. So it's like, where's the risk? Where's the voice? I think I have a low tolerance for brands and creatives and photographers and artists who don't have an opinion and who don't share that opinion, not because I need people to be polarizing, but because I want to know who they are and what they stand for.

(00:11:03):

That's important to me. And so I think that putting the risk and infusing the risk back with creativity is important. And just like you said, how does that work in the marketing department? Well, there should be some understanding that like, hey, this is not going to be kosher to everyone. Everybody might not just jump right on board with it, but the goal is be willing to stand behind something that's a little edgy, that's a little out there that might be scary. And it's okay if there are a percentage of people that don't get it, don't follow, aren't with it. The goal is to adhere closer to that audience that you want and care about and maybe find in the process new people to kind of, I don't know, work with or who are excited.

Cole Heilborn (00:11:47):

What's an example of a piece of creative that has just felt right to you? And maybe it felt edgy and it felt out there, but in your gut you were like, I know that this is a risk worth taking. Can you describe some of the parameters around how you

Chris Burkard (00:12:04):

Want me to describe one of my personal pieces of creative or something that I've seen that that I felt that way about?

Cole Heilborn (00:12:12):

Could you give me

Chris Burkard (00:12:13):

Both? I could try. I'll try and dig into the memory bank. I remember there was a Gerber ad that Farm League did. Farm League is a production company in la, great people and good friends. And I remember right when they were starting out, one of their first projects where they really put their stamp on it was this Gerber job, and I'm blanking on the name of the title of the piece, the anthem piece, but it was awesome. And it was this rough and tumble, gritty type of kind of anthem piece that was just so on point and so on brand. And you can tell that shots were stolen and not everything was scripted and perfect, and people were eating shit and stuff that normally you'd send to a legal department and they'd be like, whoa, no, no, no. And you know can tell you're somebody pushed that through and whoever that is probably changed the course of the company because that thing performed so incredibly well.

(00:13:18):

And it was epic. I'm totally blanking on the name of the anthem piece, but it was like maybe eight years ago really cool piece that they did. And I just remember that feeling so different, feeling like a leap forward. And maybe now it's funny because now that's almost casual, but back then, whatever, however long that was really revolutionary. So I, I've always loved that. I've always loved when a car brand has a, I think there was an old Toyota ad where the car was falling down the cliff and then it landed and it was perfectly upright and then drove off. That stuff is funny, and that stuff is so epic, and nowadays it'd be hard to push that through because of the legal ramifications of everything, and I get that. But at the same time, it's the things like that you remember personally, I remember, I'll just give you a personal project example because I think it's challenging to say that there was the create.

(00:14:29):

Usually, typically, I'm not necessarily always bringing the creative to the table. It's usually like I'm working through an agency that is then presenting the idea to myself and to the brand, and I'm executing. So there are times where I've seen it and I've seen the creative and I'm like, this is going to be really cheesy and I don't want to do this, but you got to put food on the table. And then there are times, and that's a tough thing to kind of swallow. And then there are times where you can see it for what it is and you're like, this is going to be really cool. I really want to be a part of this. So ultimately my personal favorite investment in that was creating a book called at Glacier's End, and it was a seven year project that I did to document Iceland's Glacial Rivers.

(00:15:17):

And the reason I think it was rewarding was mainly because it ended up being used in on behalf of Icelandic environmental branch, the government to advocate for the river systems and their protection. And this book became this iconoclast for people who were in the decision making seats to understand what was at risk when this land was being sold for energy export. Now that's a mouthful I understand. But basically, long story short is I worked on a project for about seven years. The whole time I didn't really know what I was doing. It evolved naturally into something that became this kind of altruistic environmental pursuit. In the beginning it was just like I wanted to take pretty pictures. So that became the most rewarding, long lasting thing. And I also at one point made a children's book and I thought, this is going to be so dumb.

(00:16:07):

Nobody's going to care about this. But at the end of the day, I did it because I had kids of my own. And long story short, I don't want to drag on, I know I'm talking forever. That became the bestselling book I've ever done in my life, and it's sold at all the National Park stores. And it's been really incredible. And I was so narrow-minded that I didn't really realize how that would get my work to other audiences that I never would've touched in the past. And so that became a really valuable project. And I just think, I guess what I'm saying is sometimes the best results revealed themselves. It's kind of about sniffing out, okay, I'm interested in this, I'm open to this, I'm excited about this. I don't really know what it's going to be, but I'm willing to follow that excitement. And I think that one of the best ways I've had it recently explained to me, which I love, is when people are trying to find what their interests are, what they care about, what they find to be unique in the world around them, it's like if you had a free day and you could spend your time learning anything new, what would it be?

(00:17:14):

What would you want to dedicate a few hours to? That's an element of following your nose and following and trusting in some inner knowledge or whatever. So I feel like when it comes to the creative process, there is a bit of that. There is a bit of that you have to follow a little bit of intuition and you owe it to yourself to see where things go. And I think the biggest risk is knowing when to stop. When is putting more energy into it actually going to take away whether financially or time or whatever it is, and when is it okay to just put it out and start the next project?

Cole Heilborn (00:17:48):

I'm assuming that's a very case by case basis.

Chris Burkard (00:17:52):

Yeah, it is. And I think that there's a way to evaluate each situation. And I'm mostly talking about, it's tricky because kind of talking about myself with my own creative, putting something out into the world, but the other example was more me operating to fulfill a brand's creative,

Speaker 3 (00:18:10):

Which

Chris Burkard (00:18:11):

As you know very well, sometimes you get these briefs and you're reading through it and you're like, whoa, we can do this, but is it going to facilitate the desired outcome that you want? And it's tough because sometimes we have to sit there and kind of bite our tongue, but at the same time, you also feel a sense of responsibility to maybe voice your opinion that the creative or the brief or the style might not yield this compelling short film for festivals or this epic brand piece. But as you said, I think that the value really comes into being somebody who can not just hold a camera, but people are coming to you for your creative input and for your advice and maybe as more of a collaborator instead of just a hired tool.

Cole Heilborn (00:19:09):

So when you get a brief and when it feels right, could you describe that feeling and could you set some parameters around how maybe to evaluate, does an idea feel right? Because I guess I am assuming you're this way, you just kind of feel it in your gut, right? You're like, oh, this is really good. But could you explain more beyond that surface level description of it feels right?

Chris Burkard (00:19:33):

Yeah. I think that the brief is one thing. So I mean, I think everybody who watches this or listens to this podcast probably knows what a brief is and whatnot. But just for those maybe who might come to this from my channel or something like that, a brief would normally be some kind of a deck or a PDF or an Adobe Spark that lays out the creative treatment of what the brand is trying to execute. Or the creative agency, which is basically the intermediary between the brand and the hired, whatever production agency, us, me, you, what they put together in order for us to imagine what they want. And with that brief might be a mood board. It might be like dates, locations, timelines, expectations. It might be laid out that we need X amount of images for this catalog, or we need X amount of cutdowns for this thing, and then we need this film with this feeling.

(00:20:30):

And my favorite ones, they always usually start the same, which is like there is a thoughtful, intentional opening brief that paints the picture and whether that, it might just be like, it looks like somebody took the time to write something thoughtful, and usually it will start with our subject is staring out over the Himalayan skyline, taking a breath of oxygen before looking over at her partner, something like that. It sets the tone and I'm like, oh, I get it. There's creativity infused into this, and briefs can look different. I'm just painting one picture, or maybe it's an advertising piece and they're talking about, I don't know, somebody's cheersing a beer over an open fire or whatever it is. There's a lot of ways in which these things can come to life, but I really appreciate it when I can tell that there is a creative thumbprint on it, and I know that someone took the time to add their voice to it because I'm like, oh, that's that person's voice.

(00:21:41):

I want to add to this voice. Because if there's no voice, then it's just words on paper. And then what happens is that the brand sort of shoves it over to you and they want you to add your voice onto it, which is great. That's super awesome to do, but a boat without a captain will go nowhere. Tell me. So I mean, I don't need to say much more than that, but I think that's what it is. And when brands are looking for you to captain their ship or that's tough, and I think that the collaboration is the best. I love when I have that creative call and there's energy and we're throwing around ideas and I can spitball and they can spitball and we can tell that we're going to gel. That's when the fire gets started. For me,

Cole Heilborn (00:22:33):

What's in a voice that gives the brief meaning or gets you excited? Break that down even further if you can.

Chris Burkard (00:22:42):

Yeah. What's a no voice? Well, I love being in, so I think it's tough because I think knowing somebody closely is one thing. If I'm getting to know my subject that I'm shooting, oftentimes when we're creating some kind of a piece, there's a focal point, there's a subject, it's either a landscape or a person or a product. I'm just kind of being very general here, but I'd say it falls into those categories. And so I want that creative to inform me what the perspective of those things is. Every man jack, shampoo, conditioner for the female audience, I don't know, but I would say that it doesn't appear. So it appears more like it has this male perspective. That's a voice, that's a perspective, that's an opinion when back in the day to tie this into advertising so that it makes sense so we can connect the thread.

(00:23:49):

I think that me getting super esoteric and saying, yeah, the voice is like this, that doesn't help anybody. But when you think back to those Old spice campaigns where they were funny and they were very kind, bravado, male focused that had a voice, and when you think about the God, what's the Captain Morgan thing that had a voice, that was a perspective, and again, all these are the machismo situation, but at least there was an opinion there or a style or a kind of taking it maybe over the top in some ways in a good way. But I think that's fun to play with. And Patagonia as a great example, they tend to usually always have a voice and a perspective. I think there are times where that sort of gets lost in the weeds, of course, but I think that brands like that do often it's almost easier to work with because you kind of know what you're getting into.

(00:24:51):

So to not have a voice kind of means to me that usually that brand or that project, it's not that it's doomed to fail, it's just that you're going to have to push through the weeds a bit harder. And I think that this ties back to what we were discussing last time is usually that's the byproduct of somebody in the creative seat choosing to not take full ownership so that then if it doesn't work out, there's somebody to blame. And I will say that somebody has probably fallen on all of us at some point and proudly so because if it does, it means that I had to interject my own creative in order to get the job done. And you can usually, typically these things manifest themselves afterwards when you're sending over that first video review and you're waiting for feedback and you're biting your nails and you're sitting by the computer and you're like, is this remotely on brand with what they want? And at that point, I honestly feel like that's when that is defined the most, the voice because then the's a bunch of opinions being filtered down and you're like, wow, there is no synergy here.

(00:26:17):

And I hate to say that. It's like it's sort of a backwards analogy or analysis I guess you could say, because people can kind of fake it in the beginning. We're putting together a brief, we're pulling off the very best examples off the internet. We're pulling the best photographs off for mood boards to inspire our production company or the photographer. That's easy, that's just like replication. But then when send the work back for review, you send the images back, you send the video for its first pass or whatever, that's when you start to really realize, okay, was there a definitive perspective it was laid out in the deck, or was that deck written by ai? I don't really know.

(00:27:03):

Or do they know what they want? If they know what they want, they will tell you. And I actually just did a job recently with this incredible, incredible creative that came on the shoot, and she was just so spot on, so dialed. We sat down and did image reviews at night. We were shooting a big catalog piece and a video as well. And we did some image reviews like day three and day six. Usually if we're shooting images, we tend to stack a couple days. And what we do is often for me, I'm going through and looking at the models and looking at the looks and this and that because a lot of what I shoot is still clothing based kind of catalog stuff. And we're kind of identifying what's working well on this person. And so when I sit with a senior creative who's really good, they can point out things that I wouldn't notice.

(00:27:56):

They can make intentional thoughts in real time, good criticism, good feedback, like, oh, you know what? The way that he or she holds her face here, maybe we work with this angle, or you know what? We've nailed that outfits. Put that one to bed. Let's get a little more creative. Let's do some shutter blurs. Let's kind of move around this scene. Let's shoot a little more pull back. We're a little tighter. I really appreciate that because it gives me a really long leash to work more creatively. And I've also been on those projects where the whole time you're kind of wondering if you're getting what they want because you're not getting critical feedback. And I hate to slingshot this back to the same idea, but if you're not getting that critical feedback and somebody from the brand is with you on the shoot, that's usually a red flag,

Cole Heilborn (00:28:54):

A red flag that they

Chris Burkard (00:28:58):

Either don't definitively know what they want, or maybe they don't know how to articulate what they want, or they just aren't willing to be the advocate for what they want. Because again, if I go shoot this last job, I think we shot like 40,000 images. If I send back 40,000 images and some other senior level who knows what is points that says this sucks? I don't know. Obviously if I sat with that person and they were telling me, we're nailing it. Oh, this is great. This is what, or they're saying, you know what? We need to reshoot this. If I don't hear that, then there's nothing I can do to fix it. So it's so important, I think, to have that critique to make sure that that person's speaking your language. I really try to take the time to get to know the people that I'm working with, not necessarily because we're going to become lifelong buddies, but because I want to understand their communication style. I want to understand if their communication style is soft or it's more intense, or if they need words of affirmation, if they need what's their love language. You know what I mean? I'm trying to understand how to make them as comfortable as possible in order for their creativity to flourish because that's their job.

(00:30:28):

These are never short answers. I'm so sorry. I feel bad. I wish I could give you that 32nd just nugget, but I won't know how to do that.

Cole Heilborn (00:30:36):

It's not that simple. There's a lot more to it. Do you

Chris Burkard (00:30:40):

Think they're good questions and I think they merit a lot of articulation sometimes.

Cole Heilborn (00:30:46):

I've often wondered about this, and I'm curious to hear your perspective. I wonder if some of the disconnect that happens between strategy, creative and then execution comes down to the fact that the agency of record model has changed a lot and agency of records in some industries are a thing in the outdoor industry, not so much, and a lot of creative is now being produced in a very chaotic manner. Sometimes it is from brand direct to photographers, sometimes it's all across the board. Do you feel like because the agency world changed, is that why it's hard to keep up and it's hard to keep feedback consolidated, keep point of view, consolidated? Or is it always just been messy and it's just extra messy now because there's not someone who is owning all of that?

Chris Burkard (00:31:37):

Yeah. Well, so nowadays there's creative teams that a lot of these larger companies who used to outsource a lot of that stuff. In some ways that becomes a dream because you just have one point of communication. For those who aren't familiar with what we're referencing, a lot of times there's sort of a chain of emails. If the hired photographer or produce production person or whatever it is, studio, if I have a question, it's going to go through somebody that's going to go through somebody else that's going to go back to the brand. And there are levels of separation for a reason. But I find that when I work direct to brand, which is kind of more common these days simply because of I think a lot of things people, brands are kind of, I don't want to piss anybody off, but I feel like at the end of the day, the reason that shifted is because you have these agencies that are working really hard, producing badass, risky, creative for these brands.

(00:32:40):

They become the agency of record because of that one epic campaign. And then every other campaign is a little more diluted and a little more diluted, and they're pouring a little more water into that coffee and then all of a sudden five years later, you're like, this is the softest stuff I've ever seen. There's no perspective here. There's no humor, there's no joke. Better to tell a joke that some people don't get than not and make the rest of the world laugh than not tell one at all. So I think what happened is some of the brands are like, well, why are we paying our money a lot of money sometimes to creative agencies where we're not seeing the risk and then vice versa. The challenge is they were putting forth the risk when this, whatever it was, $10 million contract, $2 million contract wasn't on the line.

(00:33:29):

And so I understand that struggle. I've been there, I've had contracts with brands to shoot for years and years and years, catalog after catalog after catalog. And at a certain point, dude, stuff just looks stale. You've worked with all their models, you've worked with all their athletes, you've shot all the looks. You're like, you know what, I'm, I'm not going to drastically change my style of shooting to adhere to your brand. And vice versa. If you want to change, maybe the best, the point of maturity is to realize that at some point you either outgrow them or they outgrow you, and that is okay. It's not a bad thing. In fact, staying true to who you are and your style is really important and that's okay. And it doesn't need to just evolve all the time. So there's a lot to unpack there. Sorry, I totally, honestly, Cole, I forgot your original question, but I do think that the important thing to take away is that it is still messy To me, it's always been messy.

(00:34:33):

I think what makes it more messy now is the amount of deliverables that are on hand. When it used to be like, yo, we're making a 30 minute film and a two minute trailer done, that was a very different thing than six second cutdowns vertical cuts, this and that, and the list goes on and on and on and on. And that's really challenging. So I do think it's a mix. I do think that there's light at the end of the tunnel in some capacity. Maybe that's just the optimism, optimist in me. But I feel like for a long time, at least in the time that I've been in this industry, I've noticed more work going back to brand kind of the agency or the creative agency model dying off a little bit, just a tiny bit. But then a lot of young, fresh, creative houses also flourishing because they're bringing new and interesting ideas.

(00:35:31):

And I've also seen a different model that's kind of an intermediary, which is hard to articulate, but it's more like if there's a clothing company and they want to do activations and they work with almost like a store or a community hub, could be like a coffee shop or a store or a gathering place that's going to be hosting these experiences for brands or people and they become an activation partner as well. They're not like a creative agency, but they are operating as one, which is wild because nowadays the term creative agency means everything. You could just call yourself that. So I guess you could say it's getting diluted, it's evolving, it's spreading out. It is a little bit more complicated, but there are more eggs in the basket to be taken.

Cole Heilborn (00:36:30):

Something that I see and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on, I'm curious to hear all your thoughts on this, if you haven't picked up on that by now, is I see a lot of filmmakers and photographers, and I've done this in the past, I'm guilty of this. We'll go to brands and we'll pitch ideas, we'll pitch stories, we'll pitch expeditions, whatever it might be.

Chris Burkard (00:36:47):

Totally.

Cole Heilborn (00:36:48):

And sometimes it works and sometimes that's great, but I often wonder, are we perpetuating a problem without realizing it? Because we're not putting the brand's goals first. We're just saying, Hey, I've got this rad thing happening. I'm assuming that you have a goal. I'm assuming that you have a need that actually aligns with what I'm proposing, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that. Is that something, I think part of that habit is necessary because every filmmaker, every photographer is going to try and find a way to make their passion happen. And I totally respect that, but I also wonder if that, not damages, but if it just changes the way that brands work with creatives.

Chris Burkard (00:37:28):

That's so interesting, Cole. I do think that I would say there are two ways to look at it. Sometimes when I'm proposing a project to a brand, I'm verbatim telling them, I'm not doing this. I'm not creating this to adhere to your core audience because you already have them in your pocket. They love you. They're the people that buy your stuff or whatever it is, or they use your product and you already won them over. The goal here is to speak to a different audience, one that doesn't know about you. And that's what my intention is. And so what I'm saying now is, well, it almost answers a question that they didn't think to ask, which is like, okay, how do I get these marketing needs or initiatives to a different audience, which I have always found to be the simple, most crucial step for success in this industry is get your work in front of new audiences so that you can acquire more work.

(00:38:35):

And I think that sometimes brands overlook that they are playing the same message to the same audience. And so I guess what I'm thinking is, I'm usually trying to think of it from left field. Okay, if this is a mountaineering company, how can I showcase those products being used in a different scenario? How can I bring a Sony camera and a surf brand together to fund a project that's about parenting and risk and fatherhood that's going to then go to a festival that people had never even thought of using those things, but now they're seeing this organic product placement. It's going from festival to festival to festival. So to me, it's like when I'm pitching a personal expedition, film this, that fund my thing, I'm thinking of it from that perspective. How can this help you get in front of new audiences? If it's just the same thing that they've already done, I know full well there's no reason to go to them to make that.

(00:39:33):

I don't need for more people to see that. But then again, the other concept would be to ask them upfront and say, Hey, I'm doing this trip. It's in six months, or it's in so and so. I would love to help get this funded or help create something for you while I'm there. Are there any initiatives coming out? What's coming down the pipeline? Et cetera, et cetera. I often find that those conversations about what's coming down the pipe is way better to have way beforehand before you hit the whiteboard and start dreaming up ideas. For example, if so-and-so brand was coming out with a new pack craft built for x, I would, based upon my relationship with them, this is usually relationship based. If you're getting insider information as to what's coming out and you can act on that, usually you have a relationship. So I might be in talks with so-and-so and they're letting me know that something's coming down the pipeline, or I might reach out to them and just say, Hey, I have a couple projects in the next six months, a year, I would really love to work with you again.

(00:40:40):

I'm just wondering what's coming down the pipe? And I might have no projects, but I'll tell you what, I can creatively strum up an idea that would adhere to their marketing needs whilst telling a story. Do you know what I'm saying? So this is the voice, right? This is where it comes in. I'm like, Hey, I'm Chris. I'm not a professional anything. I would love to tell a story about your product in this other context. I want so-and-so brand that we used on this expedition to help us tell a story about climate change or global warming, whatever, I don't know, whatever it is, or the glacier or living in these hostile environments and these beautiful people that are able to survive there. There's bigger narratives out there, or maybe I'm here. And it's really more about just trying to get in touch with them because you want to shoot something.

(00:41:38):

I find that those are two different processes, I guess you could say. Just being hired to shoot a catalog is one thing. Very linear, being hired to them, either giving you money or hiring you to either shoot a product or support a trip that will come back to them and fulfill their marketing needs. Those are two kind of different sides of the coin. Hopefully that makes sense. I know that whenever I'm talking about this business stuff, I'm always trying to dumb it down a little bit. I don't know who the audience is, and I don't just want to assume that everybody knows how these things work,

Cole Heilborn (00:42:15):

And I think most people don't have an inside look into the brand, right? They're looking on the outside and they're like, oh, this would be rad. X brand would be a great fit. I'm just going to pitch this idea and hope that it lands.

Chris Burkard (00:42:28):

And you know what? You have to pitch ideas and hear nos, and you become better and better at pitching ideas. The more you do it and the more visual aids you have, and the more references for costs you have, and the more tools you arm yourself with, the better you are going into battle. Because let me tell you, it's a battle to get paid, and it's a battle to make cool shit, and it's a battle you're going to have to fight for what you want. That's the point. And if you're not willing to, then I just don't know that it's necessarily the career path for certain people at least trying to create your own creative endeavors or creative projects in some capacity or storytelling.

Cole Heilborn (00:43:11):

What's the role of feeling in marketing? What role does that play? How powerful is that?

Chris Burkard (00:43:17):

I mean, I think it's everything. You know how it is. You watch that one commercial a year and you're like, whew, that one gave me chills. I think the last one I saw was there was a Nike commercial about how strong women are, and I was like, that was epic. It just made me stop and think about it and made me, I don't have any young girls, I have no daughters, but it made me proud or have felt that proudness to be a dad of a girl or something like that. So I don't know. There are a lot of times I've seen great advertising that can strike an emotional cord that's so important. Also, a lot of people's smaller personal projects that strike an emotional chord. I think the challenge more so are when we force it, which we see in a lot of films, in a lot of videos, we have, for example, we have a really strong-minded creative and director who wants to make this film about this subject that they found this person, this climber, this skier who overcame this big thing.

(00:44:29):

But when they get that person on camera, they're just not delivering and they're not emoting in the way that they hope. And so that person, that creative, instead of accepting that and being like, okay, this isn't what we thought. We either have to pivot or we just have to call it quits. They push it through and then it just becomes nothing. It just becomes kind of a voiceless thing. And there isn't any emotion. And it's honestly really challenging when you see somebody who is putting their, really sharing a challenging experience in their life or whatever it is, but you can tell they're so emotionally detached from it. That's hard when you see it in a film or something like that. Now, that's an extreme example, but I think the point being is that as somebody who's kind of been on both sides of the lens and both sides of the coin, I don't think everything we do needs to be like art because we're kind of stretching out from that.

(00:45:31):

Art is emotion and feeling, right? There's a lot of things I've done or been on camera or said that weren't like, I'm in tears doing this. I've done a lot of things. I need to put food on the table and this is a job, and that's okay too. That's okay. That wasn't art. That was just a performance. That was just me doing my very best or so-and-so brand. That's okay too. I guess I just don't want to get this highbrow. Everything needs to be everything overkill. But I think that when a brand is really stepping behind something and there's a key message and a key takeaway, I love that. There's a new, just to kind of bring this back, there's a new Kovus commercial, the shoe brand that, I'll have to

Cole Heilborn (00:46:22):

Flip this.

Chris Burkard (00:46:22):

Yeah, it's good. Some of my friends made it. I think Danny Motor filmed it, and Chris Malloy was a part of it as well. But it's rad. And at the end of the piece, at the the video edit, everybody should just watch this. It's epic. And it is an advertising piece. They're just selling shoes, so keep that in mind. But they have this epic monologue and at the end they're talking about the American West, and they're saying what the world needs is not more people in the West, but more west in the people. And there was an emotional cord there that it just gives you chills. And the point of that is that good writing can give you a feeling like, I got a feeling. I got a feeling when I said that right there.

Cole Heilborn (00:47:09):

I got a feeling coming from you.

Chris Burkard (00:47:12):

And I'm like, whoa, that's the truth. It is the truth. It's this, what does it represent? It's this big expansive place that sometimes feels like everything and sometimes nothing at once. And it's beautiful, and it's the desert and it's LA and San Francisco and Seattle and Portland and the, it's so much. So anyway, point being is that I feel like that's possible in advertising.

Cole Heilborn (00:47:37):

I have this concept that the audience, the concept is that the audience doesn't care about your brand or your content for the most part. And the only reason to make them care is to make them feel something,

(00:47:50):

Which seems like, and it's really easy to say that obviously it's harder to do it, but it seems like it's a massive opportunity because maybe I'm just kind of jaded, but it seems like the outdoor industry, for the most part, it's the same stuff. It's the same rinse and repeat. There's not a lot of strong feeling that, at least I feel from a lot of the stuff that gets produced. And I'm curious what you see, if you had to rate the industry on its level of feeling in the content and the advertising that gets produced, how are we doing on that?

Chris Burkard (00:48:23):

I'd say it's pretty brutal. I think some heritage brands do it better. Some of the, I don't know, spirits and drinks brands, some of the leather goods brands, I'm trying not to name as many names, but there are companies out there that do it pretty well. I think what's challenging is when you have an industry like the outdoor industry where everybody's kind of making this price point puffy and this price point rain shell, and it's like you can't tell a story around that stuff because it's just, they're making it to hit that price point for that person. And there's nothing that interesting. It's a shell, unless it's new technology, unless that piece of product got somebody to a place faster or more efficiently or safer or whatever, or new or different, then there's not really a story. Or if it's a textile story, there are ways to extrapolate stories from it, pull the thread so to say.

(00:49:26):

But for the most part, the stuff that we are looking at has been seen and used a million times. So what is the story then? The story is usually about a person or a group, people wearing said clothes, using said product, whatever it is to do something better for the environment, better for themselves, help them pursue their goals, whatever. So I feel like the biggest challenge is that when you go that route, then you usually, you have a real story to tell. Because we're human beings. We like human stories. It's one of our favorite things is to watch other people find joy or find healing or find, I don't know what they're looking for. And so the challenge with that is it usually seems to follow the similar arc. It's like subject is here and then they go here and then they go here and then they're done.

(00:50:24):

I think that there's not a lot of permission to kind of branch out and break out of the mold a lot. And maybe you made this epic personal project and that got you the job with so-and-so, and then you got the job with so-and-so hoping that you could do something that personal again. But it doesn't usually happen like that. And there's barriers at entry or there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen. So yeah, I don't really have a definitive answer there, but I feel like there are ways around it. I think that there are ways to kind of find ourselves and our opinions and our perspectives in those pieces. And yeah, I would say that my favorite thing in the outdoor world in the last five to 10 years is kind of the repair is a radical act concept with wear at Patagonia and Arc’teryx refurbishing their stuff. And it almost kind of makes you wonder what was happening before this. I mean, of course you could send your stuff in, but how sad that wasn't a part of their marketing, that they will repair your stuff for free if you bring it into the store. That should become the standard.

(00:51:46):

And I guess what I'm getting at is that became a whole huge marketing initiative for all of these brands, right? Huge. Now, there's a whole part of the company dedicated to it. There's jobs created, there's social media created, there's a tour. You know what I mean? All I'm saying is that five years ago, that wasn't even a concept. Maybe it was happening behind the scenes, but now there's almost a miniature industry inside the industry. So it seem ridiculous that it's almost like we're looking at our feet. We all of a sudden look at our feet. We're like, oh, it's, it's right there. It's been there the whole time.

(00:52:22):

So hopefully you understand what I'm saying. When a company like Arc’teryx dedicates a space in their boulder store, a huge space to refurbishing clothing, that's a big deal. They're taking down space that they could hang clothes and sell clothes to do that. Why wouldn't it be more valuable just to sell more clothes? No, that's an investment in the community, and it creates a story and it does this, and it competes with Patagonia because they're doing it right. So I guess what I'm saying is some of the best ideas we already have, we need to look at them in our company. I am often shocked at how many brands that I've worked with in the past where I'm like, I will say this verbatim. And you've never told that story. I feel like you've said that too. You're like, they're telling you some cool story about how this product was made or the owner did this, or, oh, it was a road trip he did just out of high school with so-and-so friend and he found this, I don't know, something under a Coke tab or whatever it is. You're like, and you've never told that story. And I guess what I'm saying is the stories are often already there. It's just about telling them intentionally and thoughtfully. And there's a lot of brands, surprisingly, who have the story, but they're scared to share it because they feel like maybe they didn't build the brand around it initially, or there's some trepidation around if their audience will like it or not,

Cole Heilborn (00:53:54):

Or they just need the outside perspective to help them realize it's a good story. A hundred

Chris Burkard (00:53:59):

Percent. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Cole Heilborn (00:54:02):

We got a bunch of questions from folks from the last episode. Do you mind if we run through some of these?

Chris Burkard (00:54:08):

I'd be honored. Yeah, that'd be great.

Cole Heilborn (00:54:09):

Alright, this one comes from Derek and Lindsay. He said, I love how you guys talk about the evolving role of the creative in the industry, sometimes more as a creative agency than just production. Specifically how the execution slash strategy of delivery can often be the most important part in film slash marketing video. Can you walk through how you identify different successes slash failures happening specifically through the delivery, especially with projects that have more risk to them? And then the second part of that question is, would you recommend marketing yourself as a creative director in this landscape or more as a director slash production studio?

Chris Burkard (00:54:45):

First question being how to avoid and manage pitfalls potentially with the creative and make sure that it's in line with what the brand wants, and how do you make sure that it's a hit and not a miss?

(00:54:57):

Basically, what I would say is that, I think I said this in the last podcast, but you always have to work backwards from the end goal. And if you don't know what the end goal is and they can't articulate the end goal, then you don't know what you're aiming for. So the ship has no rudder, right? And it might have a captain, but what's the point if it's not going anywhere? And that's oftentimes what happens. You'll have somebody who's up there steering it, but there's no real direction. And so when I'm in the process of the creative calls and the back and forth or the emails or the phone, whatever, I really try to understand, well, how would you define success in this? Because I want to make sure that Chris Burkhart's version of success for this project is the same as yours. And if it's not, then there's a fundamental problem there that we need to resolve, and that's fine, and you resolve it and you move forward. You don't want to figure that out at the end.

(00:55:49):

So full disclosure, I'll tell you something that's interesting. I just did a project just a couple weeks ago, and one of the images, or sorry, the models wasn't able to do what we had laid out or hoped that they could. So we had to basically pivot. She wasn't a model, she was an athlete, but she was injured. So we had to pivot this whole project, and I remember calling, we were on this shoot, and I called up the creative director and we chatted in my room for a second and we just said, Hey, we're going to have to shift. We're here in real time. We're going to have to shift this creative of this video. I have these options for you. My goal is to still reach your end goal, the end deliverables, because I know them. And here they are. They're this, this, and this.

(00:56:34):

But the story is going to be a little less about this and a little more about this because we couldn't include certain people. So that is how you pivot and how you still adhere to their needs, and you make sure that it's like this conversation was had, because you don't want to get afraid. Tell them at the end, oh my God, this interview didn't come through, or, oh my goodness, this character didn't, whatever. Or start pointing the finger at somebody. Because sometimes that happens too. A brand comes to you and they want you to profile somebody or they want you to tell it, and you go there, you set up an interview with this person and you're like, crickets, you're not getting it. So you might have to be like, well, we can tell this story from their child's perspective. We can tell this story from a voiceover of an older version of them.

(00:57:19):

We can tell the story through illustration. We can tell the story through interviews with other people. This is how you make a plan B and you figure it out. So I'm always thinking plan B, C, how do we get this over the line if our first initial thought doesn't come through? And I try to lay that out for people. If this is a shoot where we're going far and wide across the world to do X, Y, and Z, there's got to be some plan Bs and Cs. What if our key talent gets injured? Or what if bags get delayed or whatever. So communication is key. I think that knowing what they need in terms of deliverables, obviously if you submit the project, the edit, the images, whatever, and then they put them out in the world and they don't get the financial return from product or whatever, or who knows, that's not your fault.

(00:58:06):

So that's oftentimes a miss maybe on a million different things, how it was project out in the world, the spend, the ad spend, the images chosen too. You're putting your work in the hands of maybe a photo editor or not a photo editor at all, just some random intern choosing photos for social media. That is tough. And maybe that brief is coming down from the top being like, all the photos need to show these closed this tightly, whatever. So anyway, I try to really have that conversation and I try to really look at and be a little more open about what we hope to gain and what would be some alternatives if X, Y, and Z happens, right? I'll even lay that out on a call. Hey, we're doing this trip. It's going to be a boat trip. We're going to go skiing here. Awesome. What if we get cloudy weather? What if we get one day of skiing? What if, because I'm not going to give you back money when I just spent my time and shoot days and this and that. So there's always a way to pivot, and I've had to pivot before, and I've had good results when I've often pivoted usually. Second question was, would you mark yourself as a photographer or as a creative director? I believe Was that it?

Cole Heilborn (00:59:24):

And or a production studio?

Chris Burkard (00:59:26):

I genuinely don't even, it's tough because if you're going to say you're a production studio, then that means you can produce projects of various size. I would hope that whoever's asking that feels comfortable producing or knowing what that entails because it's not sexy. You're booking flights, you are orchestrating locations. You are the middleman between the director usually and the brand or the agency, or you might be the agency. A lot of hats the producer can wear, but it's usually not the most creative hat. So I would just say first and foremost, don't get good at something you don't want to do. That's sage wisdom. So call yourself a producer if you want to produce. That's great. For sure. I have produced a lot and I started producing my own projects, which gave me the confidence to then produce a lot of other projects. I've done that quite a bit, but it's not as sexy, but it is really rewarding.

(01:00:28):

I would say that if the goal is to be known as a photographer and have your identity leveled up, then just promote yourself as a photographer. Because the problem is, is that most people who shoot motion work, they don't realize if you're just like, I'm just a DP or I'm just a second unit shooter or whatever, and you're not directing or you're not producing or you're not shooting stills, they don't realize that you show up and then you leave and your images and your work, it doesn't get retained by you. If you go and do a shoot for Toyota and you're a second unit, whatever video camera operator or you're a dp, it's not like you're keeping that work in your library. You're just handing it to the digital technician and then you go home at the end of the day. So I guess what I'm saying is that there is more notoriety, there is more room to make a name for yourself personally if you are focused on photography, I think and directing. Those are the two roles that usually kind of tend to go like this. The other ones, they get absorbed by the whole, and I know that this is a very, I'm talking about this in very broad strokes. It's really hard to just say yes or no, but I just think it's something you need to think about.

Cole Heilborn (01:01:48):

Great. Okay, next question. Do you have any advice on getting work in front of brand directors? The Instagram algorithm hasn't been doing me any favors in this regard. It comes from little Remington.

Chris Burkard (01:02:01):

Little Remington. Yeah, I mean ultimately, that's a tough one to answer. I don't want to be rude, but there was a time before social media, just so you know, and we used to just call people or people and there are services that can provide emails online for a feed of a lot of different brands, or you reach out to somebody who's worked with somebody. I don't know that social media is the best way to get your work in front of somebody. Typically, for me, I would say that it's a great way to connect for an email or connect for a contact or point of contact, but I'm not sending images or a pitch on there. I'm usually just starting a conversation and then taking it quickly offline to a better place that suited for having adult conversations in my opinion, email or phone call or whatever.

(01:02:58):

But dms are not the place that I feel like I want to do business. That's just me. I mean, again, I might be dating myself, but that's just not the way that I like to operate. So I would say that there is a number of ways. Obviously it's also important to understand that you might be talking, might be reaching out to somebody on social media because you want to shoot for them, but that brand, depending on the size, they might have some social media outsourced by an agency that just focuses on social media and Milwaukee. They don't have anything to do with the photo shoots or with this, they don't have anything to do with that. So you need to do your research, you need to go online. You need to look up what is this company, what are they all about? What do they represent?

(01:03:39):

Do I resonate with them? Is this a brand that I actually want to work for, or is this a brand that feels like I'm going to have to shift my style of work drastically to work with them or they're going to have to shift theirs and if they have to shift theirs, that's not going to happen. So you want to make sure there's synergy. And then I think that understanding and knowing what you're hoping to put in front of them, is it an expedition? Is it a trip? Is it a job? Is it just to get your portfolio in front of them? Is it to get work? Define that because as you define it, it'll help you narrow in on what you want to say and how you want to say it. That being said, there used to be more physical experiences like outdoor retailer where a lot of brands would go and you could go as a creative and meet a lot of companies and meet a lot of photo editors.

(01:04:23):

Nowadays it's a bit more dispersed. There are a lot of trade shows still. If you are in the hunting world, you should go to shot show, right? It's as simple as that. If you're working in Europe and you want to go and meet people who are decision makers at the brands the outdoor brands go to, it's not that complicated. That's what trade shows are for. It is the trade market. You are there as not only a consumer, potentially a buyer, which is what a lot of people go for. But also for media. I used to go to Outdoor Retailer and have meetings with Patagonia and North Face and yada yada, and I would just, obviously sometimes I would cold call or I would cold email is someone from the photo department taking meetings of the show? Or I might go up to the booth or I might send them an email or a direct message or a phone call, whatever. And then once you have the relationship, you can keep it going and you can go back again and just say Hi, and I want to show you some of my new work. And they might give you a pat on the back and say, come back next year. But you always get some feedback is what I find.

Cole Heilborn (01:05:27):

Great. Next question.

Chris Burkard (01:05:32):

These are great. I love 'em, man. Keep 'em coming.

Cole Heilborn (01:05:34):

Okay. This comes from Lucas and Peters. I'd love to hear more about balancing the video slash photo aspect that seems more in demand these days, but more than anything, I'm curious to hear what he thinks about doing a total unplugged sort of shoot, hitting some nature with a Nikon Fe for a week and getting off grid with an old school camera. It sounds like

Chris Burkard (01:05:55):

If I'm going to get off grid, I don't want to bring any camera. I mean, I think that's just what it comes down to is I love photography so much, but it's not my preferred way of experiencing the world. Now. There was a time when it was, but whenever I'm with my family or with my kids or just on my own trips, all I bring is a film camera, little film camera and my phone. That's all I have. So to me, I want to unplug as much as I can. The only time I'm picking up a camera is when I've got to do a shoot or I've got to do a project now, and it feels a little more like a tool than it does a paintbrush these days, I will say. But that's kind of what happens when you use it a lot. The first question was, can you remind me of that one?

Cole Heilborn (01:06:42):

Yeah. Balancing the video slash photo aspect.

Chris Burkard (01:06:45):

Yeah, so it's tricky one because I don't really know many people these days who are going to be going on a shoot and saying, I'm saying, yes, I will shoot stills and video simultaneously. I always find that the best way to operate, if you are going to call yourself a production studio, you're going to operate as a production studio is to say, Hey, I, Chris Berger, I'm a still photographer and a director and a producer. I do not shoot video. I will hire out a video team to operate because any video project really worth doing is going to need more than one person, right? It's going to need a sound guy and maybe a drone operator. And then as you know, and anything really good is going to need a director as well. And so I like to direct and I like to produce, and I think that for anybody starting out, I would always make sure that you're having that conversation with whoever's hiring you to say, Hey, I can do this, but one of them is going to suffer.

(01:07:45):

So which one's more important? Right? Because as a tipping scale, they're not going to be like, yeah, I can magically do both. And they're both going to be the same quality. You're going to stress out your model or you're going to stress out whoever you're working with. If you're like one more pass for stills, one more pass for video, one more pass. That's brutal. How much better is it to then go and say, Hey, I will be shooting stills and I'll be hiring my studio, be hiring a video team to shoot this. So I do think it's very common to answer the question and very popular to do that, yes. But one man rodeo is not like the jam I the way that you want to. I don't think really that's something you want to build your name around either because it's just going to stress you out and eventually I just don't know that it's going to bring out your best work. So yeah, if it was me, I feel like I would really understand what role you want to fulfill in that and then kind of move forward from there. What is the priority and what do you really want to do?

Cole Heilborn (01:08:46):

Yeah. How have you transitioned from working for brands to selling your own community on Instagram? This comes from Chris Chase.

Chris Burkard (01:08:55):

That's interesting. I mean, I would say that first and foremost, most of my work really still is branded work. Whether we're shooting motion or we're shooting some stills assignments, I would, it's tricky because I don't think I've ever wanted to really have my business be on social media only or be selling a community. I really enjoy sharing experiences with people through films, going and doing film screenings, going and doing slideshows, doing a talk, a presentation, a book signing. That's where I really love to engage with my community, so to say. And I've been really lucky to meet over the years, hundreds of thousands of people through doing tours for 20 years of projects. But that is something where I feel like I want to offer something. Maybe it's just the insecurity in me, or maybe it's just who I am, but I think that when there's something to offer, something that inspires, something that's in creative, something I felt something that has a voice, I feel moved to share it.

(01:10:01):

And that is the filter at which I think about what I'm putting out there to sell, to tell somebody to consume or whatever it is, especially if it's something that I've made. I don't think the world needs more products of any type. So if I'm making something or putting something into the world, I want it to either solve a problem or answer a question, meaning that it's going to serve a purpose. And so I think that when I look at the way in which we split our time these days, it should be really focused on the idea of what is your end goal? Is your end goal to kind of work in the social media world and be a creator in that capacity? Or is your goal to work with brands and create content for them? It's okay to do a little bit of both, but again, one of them will always suffer.

(01:10:52):

And I am the byproduct of somebody who's tried to do it all. And I could tell you first and foremost, it doesn't all work. You burn out and learn from my mistakes and my honesty that it is really hard. And so I think it's important to kind of, I don't know, reevaluate from time to time what really moves you, what gets you excited, what gets you out of bed in the morning? The feeling of standing up in front of a crowd and sharing a really important project with a really important meaning that's like top tier life's purpose. And so yeah, I really try to enjoy that.

Cole Heilborn (01:11:30):

This one comes from one of my buddies, Riley Sebeck ai. How will this impact the value of real people? Real landscapes, real light. As a side note, have you lost any work? Has anyone approached you and been like, we're going to let AI generate all of this?

Chris Burkard (01:11:46):

No, no. I haven't lost any work. Great question. But I have lost quite a bit of work from the tariff situation for sure.

(01:11:53):

Shoots being delayed and stuff not happening, or products not being able to be made. That's a real issue and it's going to become even more of a real issue. So that's brutal, but it is what it is. In terms of ai, I do feel like eventually it is going to take the role of the modern day model and the modern day catalog shoot. Why would you need to go somewhere and spend all this money when you could basically theoretically pay for this model's license to use their look and then use this location? I think it's going to become all still something that costs something. My vision of it is that there's going to somehow be like an Iceland AI model where you're going to be able to go to these locations in the AI space and set up the shoot the way you wander, whatever it is.

(01:12:50):

And obviously models and musicians are going to license everything for this use case. It will eventually kill some portion of photography. And obviously I think that it will be really challenging for anything that's online in terms of what we view in the coming 10 years or so. It's going to be probably indistinguishable the landscape photographs that are real versus ai. And so there for what will it not replace? It won't replace real people offering real experiences in real time. That's something that I place a lot of value in. Books written by authors or people that you really care about. A slideshow with images or a print signed from an artist that, and you respect that is I think going to become more important because when everything else becomes watered down and trickled down and you can't even tell what campaign was shot where and then who's going to care.

(01:13:47):

So I guess this is the time in which I might be thinking about sharpening other tools so that you have those to use when the time is right. And I don't want to get to, I have an optimistic look, and I do think that storytelling will reign supreme. And I think that it's going to be a time for artists to really thrive because I think that the commerce side of just going to do some random photo shoot or random video is probably going to be absorbed a lot by ai, but also it can be a really helpful tool for a lot of the things that we're doing as well. So just wouldn't, we can't throw the baby out with the bath water. It's not going to be all bad or all good ever. It's going to be very, very, very gray. Probably 50 shades.

Cole Heilborn (01:14:31):

One of the last questions. As a brand working with an agency, how do you mitigate the risk that they might not understand your brand and miss on creative execution?

Chris Burkard (01:14:40):

Oh, so good mean? Well, if you're taking that zoom call and the person talking to you is 20 to 30 years, you're older or you're elder or you're younger, and the things that they're wearing and the things that they're talking about are not in line with what you are caring about or thinking about, that's a good red flag that maybe this is not going to come through. And again, I think it's about looking at ourselves very clearly and being like, if I am the creative director of some brand and I am here to kind of navigate this and I'm hiring this agency, why am I hiring them? Am I hiring them because I need them to speak to this younger audience, then trust them. That's what you're going to have to do. You're going to have to trust them. And it might be kind of hard, but if you're trying to connect and you're taking the time to connect and you're trying to, and this is what I'm saying about when I talk with creatives, I'm trying to really understand who they are, what kind of music do they, what kind of food do they, what are they into?

(01:15:43):

How am I going to relate to them? Because the more I can relate, the more I can understand them, the more I understand 'em, the more I can speak their language. And so I think that human interaction and reading people is a big part of this job, this career path that people tend to not talk about a lot. If you are genuinely not a people person, which is okay, by all means, there are certain aspects of this career path that might not be ideal. Being a director for example, might be really hard if you feel uncomfortable orientating or asking for what you want in your personal life. So I know I'm getting kind of out there, but ultimately it is tricky. And I think that you need to do an evaluation of those people. I'm not just saying at face value, of course, because judgmental, but it is what it is.

(01:16:37):

You're going to potentially spend a lot of money to this agency that you want to understand you, and it needs to be clear that they understand your consumer. And that's really important. So I don't mind doing exercises with them. Try to understand, not like we're playing mind games here, but even on the shoot, if I'm with somebody from a brand and I'm playing a certain type of music or I'm like, oh, put on something from your Spotify, and you're trying to gauge what they're listening to and you're trying to put yourself in their shoes, where did they grow up? Where are they from? Where does their inspiration come from? Where do they kind of see the future of this and that? So I really feel like that's something that is more commonly, it's quite a big issue I think sometimes, is that feeling that, does the agency understand me? They're going to be delivering this creative, do they really understand our brand? And sometimes no,

Cole Heilborn (01:17:36):

Incredible. Okay. Chris, before we wrap up and I let you go, can we talk about failure? I'm curious, what's a campaign or a project in recent history, I don't know, three years that yeah, you look back on, you're like, man, that didn't work, or it didn't turn out the way I would've liked. What did you learn from that? And of the details that you can share, please share them.

Chris Burkard (01:18:02):

Yeah, yeah. There's some stuff I can't really share because it's like I don't want to,

(01:18:06):

I'll throw myself under the bus all day long, but I don't want to throw any brands under the bus. But there was a video project or two that we've made in the past that was short, that three minute, that three to four minute thing where there's not really a story arc, but you're trying to get there because if it's over 30 seconds or over 90 seconds, it needs some kind of an arc. If it's under 90 seconds, it can just be a sizzle reel of some type. There was one project where we definitely, it felt like we had to force the creative a bit because we weren't quite getting that interview, that intimacy that we wanted, that kind of feeling that we wanted. So we had to force it. And it was probably a situation where I should have been like, I can't pull the plug.

(01:18:54):

But we offered other options like, Hey, like I was saying earlier, what if you sort of look at all the periphery ways to tell a story? If the goal is to get to this point, you can enter it from any angle. So there are different ways to get there. And we ran ahead with what we had because of time crunch and this and that, and the brand needed it by this date and yada, yada, yada. And classically gave us less notice than we could have had, and it suffered and it wasn't that great. And then I've also had projects where I went and did a trip to Patagonia one time for this company, MOT Block watches, I think. And it was really cool. It was a great, great experience, but we had the worst weather of all time. It rained for 10 days, and the project was actually about photographing landscapes in this place.

(01:19:45):

And I remember day nine, we haven't seen Tourist del Pine, we haven't seen anything, none of the peaks. It's so crappy pouring rain. And we were like, you know what? We're going to have to solve it. We've already spent the money. Everybody's there. Everybody's gotten paid. It's like it's either nothing is coming from this or we're going to have to do a 180. And the moment that we decided, let's just sit down and have this hard conversation and tell them the creatives that were there, Hey, this is looking bleak. What if we basically tell a story about the time that it didn't all go to plan? And so we leaned super heavily into that. We were shooting, the car broke down, and we were filming the scene with the car breaking down, and we're going up to the mountains and there's a sign that says like Tori de Pine this way, and there's this blanket of clouds.

(01:20:38):

And we leaned into the disappointment, what it's like to travel this far and to not be able to get it. And is that the point? Is it the point to get the shot? And in fact, that project, I mean, this is a roundabout way of saying that it wasn't a miss. It actually performed really well. But the whole thing was about the fact that it doesn't always go to plan. And so when it doesn't always go to plan, what do you do? What do you do? You pivot. You find other things. You find other faces and details. You look at the macro, not just the big, wide, beautiful, you look for the details. And I think that it's a good exercise when things don't go right. It's a great exercise, having to work on other concepts and ideas. And I'm grateful that they were open to that, and I'm grateful that they were willing to take a different approach and not just run with exactly what was laid out because we weren't. It was kind of like, it's either this or nothing sort of situation.

Cole Heilborn (01:21:36):

Yeah. Incredible. Chris, thank you so much for the time. Thank you for the thoughts. Is there anything else you want to leave our audience with before we sign off?

Chris Burkard (01:21:45):

I mean, I would say that 99% of the projects that I have done were either successful or unsuccessful, was really the byproduct of me knowing what I wanted to do with my own creative pursuits. And there are times where I've done the exact same thing I did five years ago to a T, but my heart wasn't in it. And so that being said, I think it's just important every once in a while to evaluate where our heart is, what we care about, what is our intention. I used to do it on a yearly process and a yearly process to kind of find some way in which I can reevaluate what my goals are. And so I guess what I'm getting at here is whether that's meditation or reading a book or prayer or whatever you need, being creative is a sensitive act. Being creative is an emotional act, being creative, it is a feeling.

(01:22:50):

It's about finding moments and slivers of beauty that maybe others don't. And so I think that in order to be that sensitive to it, you have to be sensitive to the world around you. And what I'm trying to get at is that you need to protect yourself in that regard. And so finding a way to fill back up your well, because when you're on a project or a shoot, you're giving, giving, giving, and whatever that looks like for you, take a week. It took me probably 17 years of doing this before I realized that this idea of taking time for self-care and to reinstill inspiration was actually valuable. I never went on a vacation. I never got on a plane to go on a vacation for about 15 years. The only place I would ever go is just for work. And finally, now I'm giving myself permission to do that.

(01:23:50):

And I guess the only thing I'm getting at is that human beings are sensitive creatures and we really need to sometimes realign with our North Star. And so I think that on a yearly basis now, I read the same books. I try to find some kind of a creative pursuit that is meaningless. It's not to make money, it's not to build a name, it's not to even share with anybody. It's just to learn something new, to prove to myself that I can do that. And so whatever that looks like for you, I would just urge people to do it. I have so many friends in this industry that I love dearly, and I've seen them burn out and some of them have burned out, and the match has never reignited. And so I just really want creatives to look out for creatives, and I think that that's just important.

Cole Heilborn (01:24:31):

Yeah. Beautiful. Chris, thank you again. I hope you have a great rest of your day, bro. And get some r and r.

Chris Burkard (01:24:37):

Dude, I'm going to, I hope we do part three and it would be so fun someday to do it in person and

Cole Heilborn (01:24:44):

Right.

Chris Burkard (01:24:44):

Yeah, it'd be really cool. It'd be really awesome. So thanks again for having me. Appreciate it.

Cole Heilborn (01:24:48):

Alright, see you. Cheers.

Thank you for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please consider sharing it with a friend or leaving us a review on Apple. And remember, as you're working on that next piece of creative, the difference between creative that works and doesn't work often comes down to the hard questions that you ask while you're shaping it.

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