Drew Pautler (00:00):

If you don't participate in culture, you run the risk of your brand being invisible or boring or both. And so shedding the fear of playing in mainstream spaces is what it's going to take for us to break through this insular, albeit vibrant community, but one that is more attractive for more participation. I'm not just talking about people doing it, I'm talking about people watching it and becoming fans, whether or not they do it themselves, that's ultimately where we'll see the greatest gains.

Cole Heilborn (00:37):

Welcome to the Backcountry Marketing Podcast. I'm your host Cole Heilborn. On this podcast, you'll hear from leaders in the outdoor marketing industry discuss the gritty details of their work, as well as the latest challenges and lessons they're learning along the way. If you want to hone your craft and become a stronger marketer, then this podcast is for you. This podcast is produced by Portside Productions, an outdoor film production company based in the Pacific Northwest. If you work at a brand or agency in the outdoor industry that needs help bringing a video project to life, head over to portside pro.com and send us an email we'd love to help. Welcome to the Backcountry Marketing podcast from Portside Productions. Today I'm sitting down with Drew Pautler, founder and creative director of Good Fortune Collective. Drew, welcome to the show.

Drew Pautler (01:20):

Thanks so much for having me.

Cole Heilborn (01:21):

Yeah, it's good to see you. I'm excited to have you on the show. I feel like I've been admiring your guys' work for many years now, and so when we have the opportunity to connect and start talking about what can our outdoor industry learn from the mainstream sports world, I was like, Ooh, this is going to be a fun conversation. So yeah, welcome,

Drew Pautler (01:43):

Very much looking forward to it. And yeah, feelings mutual. It's good to have a chat.

Cole Heilborn (01:47):

So I don't know what it is, maybe it's just because everyone's thinking about it these days, but many of our episodes that have been coming out recently are about the future of the industry, and I think that's no surprise, just given that as we've talked about to great lengths, our industry is in a bit of an inflection stage, and I think we're all trying to kind of read the tea leaves and figure out where is it going, what do we need to learn, what do we need to change? How do we improve the industry so that we can move forward stronger? And you had this question of there's so much that we can learn from mainstream sports, and if we could apply some of those lessons or fraction of those lessons to our outdoor industry, there's a lot we could learn. There's a lot we could probably benefit from. And so Drew, I'm curious, why is this a question that you're asking yourself? And then I'd love to kind of get into that and maybe we can even try to answer that question.

Drew Pautler (02:43):

Sure. I mean, it's just such an interesting time. I feel like with the outdoor industry, alternative sports and action sports and fully realizing that there's a lot of diversity within that group. And so I certainly don't mean to lump all together, but for so long it's been a space where we've tried to define and differentiate those experiences from mainstream sport. And in many cases, alt sports and the outdoor industry was the antithesis too, and that's all good. But we've come to a place where now as the sports have matured and more people are participating, how do we get over this hurdle of being fringe and being alternative and getting to a place where we can be more mainstream and being fully comfortable with that? And so it's something that I've wondered for a very long time and have some hypotheses and of course, some experience in working with some pretty incredible brands in this space. So yeah, just really excited to dive into that with you today.

Cole Heilborn (03:49):

Yeah, and before we go deeper, can you share a little bit about Good Fortune Collective, what you do, some of the folks you've worked with, and I dunno, maybe give us a highlight of a particular problem or something that you guys worked

Drew Pautler (04:00):

On? Sure, sure. So Good Fortune Collective is an agency I founded 11 years ago, and it was really founded under the notion of helping to amplify brands that are doing right by people and the planet. And so our mission is really to mainstream those brands and try and help them be the best version of themselves and be the most successful version of themselves. And that's of course, through cultural participation.

Cole Heilborn (04:28):

So this word mainstream, does the outdoor industry cringe a little bit when we talk about maybe becoming mainstream? You mentioned we were kind of the anti mainstream for so long, and that's who we are. That's who were Yeah. Talk to me about that word. What does that mean to you?

Drew Pautler (04:45):

I mean, my sense is that if we were able to shed that stigma of mainstreaming being a bad thing, the whole industry would grow. And it would not only grow for more people, bringing more people into the sport, but it would also grow for people who would consider themselves dedicated and passionate enthusiasts or living a lifestyle of sport or even on the sort of tip of the spear, folks who might make a living or are considered core. And there's core rock climbers, surfers, mountain bikers. I mean, there's core adventurous and campers and so on. And the reality is that, or at least in my opinion, that more people doing it isn't bad for the planet. It's good.

Cole Heilborn (05:34):

So yeah, talk to me about what is this idea of making the outdoor industry more mainstream? What does that do? Does that help, do you think that helps solve kind of the underlying issues that the industry faces?

Drew Pautler (05:46):

I think that it would help us get out of the echo chamber of talking to ourselves. And there's a comfort in that it's a place that the industry knows so well. And there is a style of marketing that definitely benefits by flexing your knowledge of a particular space and using insights that are derived that you would only know if you've been out in the water before the sun came up, or you might only know if you've been in a particular dirt condition on a mountain bike. And of course, every sport has their own nuance there. And so to flex that sort of cultural withitness within the sport is a way to demonstrate your leadership position. And so you can see how many brands have really run towards that to try and flex their legitimacy to try and demonstrate that they get it, that they understand what people who are doing the sport might go through and ultimately earning cool points along the way. And while all of that is important, it's something that can be quite insular. It's something that can also be seen as quite elitist in that this sport is for us and not them. And those are just constructs and ideologies that I think we need to shed.

Cole Heilborn (07:19):

And in doing so, hopefully, because I mean, I think at the root of this conversation, the root of the problem that we're trying to solve is how do we make the outdoors more appealing to other people who aren't already the people doing the things right? And making something that's mainstream and resonating with the mainstream culture is a way to do that. Is that what you're saying?

Drew Pautler (07:41):

Yeah. And I think that it's important to just have a couple of caveats here. I mean, obviously this is the Backcountry Marketing podcast, and so that's

Cole Heilborn (07:51):

Speaking to the core,

Drew Pautler (07:52):

Well, we're speaking to the core, but I'm referencing that because there's a lot of factors outside of marketing that influence the growth of sport and the outdoor industry as a whole. There's proximity to places of practice, there's socioeconomics and affordability, there's accessibility because hey, not everyone has the modes of moving through spaces and participation. So there's a lot of things that influence growing sport. But I think that there's a hidden, not talked about factor that could grow our sport, that mainstream sports has absolutely nailed that the outdoor industry where appropriate, and I'll get to that asterisk in a moment, could really draw some inspiration and bring more people in.

Cole Heilborn (08:49):

Okay. Yeah. So if you had to compare mainstream sports, and let's just define those, I dunno, football, soccer, hockey, would you add any to that list?

Drew Pautler (08:59):

Baseball? Yeah, sure. I mean, just to think about some of the, I don't want to call 'em traditional, but mainstream sports, depending on where you are in the world, it would be cricket, it would be American football versus of course football or soccer. For us North Americans, it's tennis, it's rugby in certain places. Just thinking of our friends down in New Zealand and Australia. And then of course for my fellow Canadians, and I know that this is a global sport, but ice hockey is another one that we could fit into the major league kind of mainstream sport classification. And someone might make the joke that these are stick and ball sports, and these are all team sports, and of course they are team sports. But the reality is is that a lot of outdoor sport and a lot of outdoor recreation is stuff that you can do individually as well as within a group context or a team context.

(09:59):

And the experiences can be radically different, and therefore we should be able to have more people participating, not less, because you don't need a team. I mean, you can shoot puck, but you can't play ice hockey on your own. You can shoot hoops, but you can't play one on none. But you can ride a bicycle by yourself, you can go running by yourself. But of course those sports are enhanced when you do it with others. And so again, there's a really interesting tension there in that, hey, the modes of enjoying some of the outdoor sports are more diverse, and yet we have less participation.

Cole Heilborn (10:39):

So if you had to compare what those mainstream sports have done versus the outdoor industry, what are the main, I guess I'm trying to understand how do these things become mainstream? And I think there's so many elements at play, but if you had to, I don't know, summarize or take a guess as to what makes those sports culturally mainstream, what are some of those attributes?

Drew Pautler (11:03):

So getting past the history and the legacy that's been built with many of these sports that quite frankly have been around for a lot longer than some of the alt sports, although, I dunno, someone might argue that hiking is the OG sport. We did that to survive ski, but

Cole Heilborn (11:20):

Ski has been around for a

Drew Pautler (11:21):

While. Before it was a sport. Yeah, exactly. Before it was a sport. It was just used to survive. But of course, moving beyond some of that history, there is such foundational and fabric forming, integration of sport, and particularly our major league mainstream sports within culture, right? There's theater programs, you can play it in school, it's part of the gym curriculum and so on. But the thing that really stands out to me is outside of this historical longevity of mainstream sports, there's an interesting shift in terms of how to participate because mainstream sports and specifically team sports are geared towards the players and also the fans. And that's sort of a more complete equation. And to sort of expand on this further, fans are not only welcome, but they're embraced to participate in the sport as fans without judgment. And that's a big different, if we were to take American football for example, fans aren't judged based on how closely their physiques look to match the players to be considered fans.

(12:46):

They don't also require having to play in local leagues to be seen as legit. And in fact, it's really interesting, the spirit of many teams lives largest in the fans who never play the game personally. And I think that that's the beauty of it, because they've always have a way to participate in watching the games, into getting the stats into buying the team jerseys into going to a game if they're able. And all of these functions are community building, and sure it's business motivated, but certainly we don't see that as a bad thing because it's supercharged by the communities that mass participation brings. And I have observed within the outdoor industry, and particularly in alternative sports, is that if you don't do the thing, then you're not always welcome. Or if you don't look like you fit that particular physique or you fit that particular style, you're not welcome. And that's not community building, that's community destroying. And I really hope that we can move past that as a sport and we can embrace people as fans regardless of whether they do the thing or not. If they love surfing, if they love skiing, snowboarding, mountain biking, whatever it is, then they are welcome and they should be there to participate and enjoy the incredible feats that the athletes who are on the course or on the field or in the water are out there doing.

Cole Heilborn (14:26):

Yeah. Why do you think that is? Why are we so hell bent on destroying community and not accepting people who don't do the sport or who don't look like they do the sport?

Drew Pautler (14:38):

I think it's unintentional. I don't have data to support this. And so I just want to caveat that I think it's unintentional in the sense that inadvertently in rejecting other people from coming in, they're trying to protect the community that does exist. And those communities within the outdoor industry are vibrant and awesome and healthy, but they're small. And so bringing more people to the party is inevitably a good thing. I really believe that that's kind of driving some of the, again, unintentional behavior that pushes people away.

Cole Heilborn (15:19):

Do you feel like there's the same passion, like visceral passion for outdoor sports from a fan's perspective as there is for American football, for instance?

Drew Pautler (15:32):

Sure. I mean, look, if you've grown up in the sport and you understand what it takes to be successful at it, I think that it's easy to be a rabid fan. I raced World Cups, guess what? I still wake up at ridiculous hours no matter where in the world the races are happening to watch it. But therein lies the problem in that, hey, I have a history with that sport, and so therefore I'm still passionate about it. The opportunity here is to really bring people in who may have never done it before and can still get into the details, the stats, the abilities of the athletes and so on. And we've seen, for example, how in the NBA women's basketball has absolutely helped to bring a new era of awesome to that game, and more people are tuning in for the love of basketball and to see these incredible athletes compete, strategize, and play one another. And so again, it's more evidence that proves. I think that when you bring more people into the sport, it also brings in fans. And when you welcome fans, you've really got a healthy community that isn't just a monoculture.

Cole Heilborn (17:01):

Something that I find that I think about a lot is why are fans so passionate? What about sports elicits such strong emotions from us? And I almost feel like there's something primal about sports. It's like, I was reading this in an article, it was saying sports, being a fan of a sport is often one of the only acceptable occasions for certain emotions to rage through your body. Whether it's extreme excitement or disappointment or anger or frustration. There's not a lot of other places in society where it's acceptable for these things to flood through our bodies. And this article was talking about the parallel between modern day sports and being a fan and primal being part of tribes and hunting and the ceremony and that experience. Do you feel like there's anything there?

Drew Pautler (17:57):

I mean, certainly the experience of doing it is something that is exhilarating. It's all of the emotions, but really, I think from a broader perspective, sport is a microcosm for life. The lessons that you can learn, playing the game, playing to win, still not winning, racing your best, having a mechanical, it just brings out, I think, the most visceral and pure human emotion. And that's what I believe is both captivating for the participant and for individual who's watching the game or the match the sport, whatever it may be.

Cole Heilborn (18:48):

So I try to think about one of the barriers to maybe something, an outdoor sport becoming a mainstream sport. And I guess I often think of participation, the amount of people that participate in the sport, if they're not participating in that probably doesn't lend itself to becoming a mainstream sport. And I was looking up some numbers, and I guess I'll caveat this. I don't know how true these are. I found them on Google in the first three seconds of looking at 'em. Okay, got it. So this was saying that one point million people in the US play high school football and 5.6 million people above the age six play football once a year. Compare that to in 2023, almost 18 and a half million people went skiing in the us. Now, assuming those numbers are true, that's a very big difference in participation. Yet skiing has nowhere the amount of fandom that football does. When I look at that, it's not purely about the number of participation that contributes to something becoming mainstream.

Drew Pautler (19:53):

No, I mean, I think it's about welcoming communities and people in, and it's about playing in culture. And there's so many examples of mainstream sports that really do a great job of bringing people in and have mastered the art of creating the headline that gets people talking. I'll give you an example. So let's take Serena Williams, the goat of tennis, right? She's won 23 grand slam titles. She's a global icon, she's the hero for millions and her main clothing and shoe sponsor. Nike didn't focus on her swing technique. They didn't focus on how she holds the racket. They focused on, of course, the flame inside her that's really fueled her pursuit to become and stay the best tennis player in the history of the sport. And it's her mind and her character that resonates with people, and that's what brings fans in. And I don't think that we have the same access into the minds and the personalities and the emotions of athletes in the outdoor industry and in the action sport industry like we do with mainstream sports. And of course, the collaboration between Nike and their ad agency. They know how to play in culture and the art of creating headlines. I love the fact that in her last professional game at the US Open before retirement, she played the game in Diamond Encrusted shoes. And technically I don't.

Cole Heilborn (21:26):

Does she really?

Drew Pautler (21:27):

Yeah, it's insane. Whoa. And so what's so cool about that is of course, and now you can Google search it and the headline that you'll read is about the diamond encrusted gold encased shoes

(21:44):

To the point where you don't even know who she played against. And how insane is that? Is that the conversation is about what Serena wore and how she wore it, and technically, did the diamonds on her shoes enhance her performance? Probably not. Is it possible that it gave her a mental edge? Maybe in the end she actually didn't even win the match, but she won all the headlines as far as Serena and Nike are concerned, that's what matters most, and that's what people remember. It's just something that really gets back to the foundations of what good marketing is, and that is giving something people to talk about playing in culture and creating participation.

Cole Heilborn (22:31):

Yeah, interesting. When was the last time you saw something come out of the outdoor industry that made a headline like Serena Williams' last game? There's lots of great

Drew Pautler (22:43):

Examples of this. On one hand, you could take, and this has largely been documented, so I won't spend much time on it, but you could take the biggest shopping moment of the year and flipping it on its head by putting values first. Reiss opt outside I think was a massive headline that brought people into the story. It was so influential that other brands decided to close their doors on the biggest shopping day of the year, which before REI did, it would have been absolutely unheard of. And I massively respect their bravery and leadership position that they took on a smaller scale, but in a very meaningful way. I think that one of the brands that we collaborate with SRAM finds ways to create headlines within cycling culture that infiltrates goes beyond doing things that of course, other brands and other products can't. The most recent launch of Eagle Transmission was all about how tough this system was.

(23:58):

And historically, it was one of those scenarios where there was some fairly sophisticated and fragile parts that hung off the back of the bicycle. And this new derailer was designed so tough that you could actually stand on it and it could sustain a hit. And so one of the things that we did was say, Hey, sram, let's release a video from the brand that actually shows someone standing on the derailer. And there was some resistance to that because of course they were nervous that everyone would go and do that. Well, guess what they did? And it was awesome because it created all sorts of user generated content that ended up being ads that just proved how robust and how capable and how precise that group set was. And so again, I love that idea of playing in culture and doing things that get people talking. And of course, it worked incredibly well.

Cole Heilborn (25:07):

Yeah, interesting. So do you feel like back to this idea of creating headlines at playing culture and give people something to talk about, do you feel like that's one of the key, I dunno if key is the right word, but if it's one of the markers of making a sport mainstream, is telling stories around the sport that are relevant or interesting for the intended audience?

Drew Pautler (25:31):

I don't know if it's about storytelling per se. We hear a lot of talk about storytelling, and that kind of assumes that people care what you have to say and people have the time to interact with it. And I think that that's quite presumptuous. But that said, getting people talking is the point. And so whether that's through the context of a story, whether that's through observing or witnessing a human feat or a human emotion, that I think is important. At the same time, it's about making product and finding ways to amplify the relevance of that product for individuals and for people who want to participate in the sport by celebrating how it actually fills a need for folks. But the documentary format in action sport is something that absolutely moves people and of course, helps to mainstream sports. And a recent or relatively recent iconic film in this regard is free solo.

(26:42):

And I mean, it won an Academy Award. And I'm not suggesting that people take risks with odds like this. I'm just suggesting that more films that celebrate human achievement in the outdoor industry would be good for the sport because people, they really don't forget that the outdoors is all around us with each landscape, of course, offering unique and incredible experiences, but it's easy to ignore and push off and not take advantage of the wild spaces that are near us. And so I think films like that really do a great job of reminding us to get out there.

Cole Heilborn (27:19):

I was looking up was some recent films and TV series about outdoor sports or just sports in general and trying to find a correlation between those and maybe the impact that they've had on fans or society. The only one I could find data for was the F1 series. So this is the Drive to Survive Show on Netflix, and there was a study done by F1 and they saw a 10% increase in fans from before and after Netflix produced that series. And it was like, wow, that's really interesting. I wonder if there's an opportunity there, again, taking a page from the free solo book, what if we started producing more documentary films that resonated with a much larger audience? Is that a way to make our sport more mainstream?

Drew Pautler (28:15):

I agree, Cole, that the Drive to Survive series transformed what was, and still very much is a race fan fueled sport. I mean, there isn't anything in motor sports, and of course we're changing classifications here a little bit, but in motor sports, there isn't anything more exciting than Formula One. But the Drive to Survive series isn't about racing, it's about the minds behind the race team drivers, the race team directors, the culture and the politics and the dynamics that exist within that. And some might argue it's turned into a reality TV show and all of that stuff. And again, we don't need to go there, but it's most basic and distilled form racing is setting the stage and the environment, but it's what it brings out in people that makes that a compelling watch. And I do think that that's the parallel to free solo

Cole Heilborn (29:26):

When I feel like that's the biggest opportunity that I see is there's so many incredible athletes and ambassadors out in our world who were doing amazing things. But if we could tell stories that really communicated and transcended the human spirit and we're an incredible human journey amongst the backdrop of the sport or the outdoors that they're participating in, that's what makes it interesting to someone who's a non climber or someone who doesn't mountain bike. And I just wonder if the stories that we're telling, we need to dig deeper, we need to be a little more critical, or we need to examine them from different perspectives to try to find the ones that are really truly special.

Drew Pautler (30:02):

I mean, certainly getting back to that fundamental of what is truly talk worthy is a great filter in the development of any asset that you're making for a brand. And sometimes we trick ourselves in thinking, well, because we made it, people care about it and it's just not true. I like

Cole Heilborn (30:26):

That. The talk worthy filter.

Drew Pautler (30:27):

Yeah. And it's a pretty simple construct to use, but in practice it's actually trickier than you think, but it really changes everything in terms of how you value, view, behave, where you show up, how you talk, how you look. It really influences everything in terms of brand behavior. And so that again, is just such a good filter feature or tactic or technique that you can use to really ensure that whatever you're making, whether it's something to promote a particular product or whether it's to celebrate someone's humanity, it really forces you to get to the core of what you're trying to deliver to your audience.

Cole Heilborn (31:24):

I think you had mentioned one of the, I don't even know if this is legitimate, but one of the common roadblocks I feel like to folks wanting the outdoors to become more mainstream is this notion that if we do so, then we will devalue the core, or the core will dissolve. And you brought up a really good point, which is I think the best argument that I've ever heard against this idea is if that were true, then why don't we see that on the basketball court? Why don't we see that on the football field? If anything, it makes those individuals, those players, those teammates that much more of legends to some degree.

Drew Pautler (32:06):

Totally.

Cole Heilborn (32:08):

Which I had never considered before, but I think that's a common argument that I don't know if people believe that, but I think we hear it. So we started this conversation asking ourselves, what can the outdoor industry learn from the mainstream sports? And if I had to put words in your mouth, it sounds like what you're saying out of all of this is like, we need to do a better job of building community. Is that an appropriate, yet simplified answer to that question?

Drew Pautler (32:38):

No, that that's quite appropriate, Cole, because when we include fans as a part of the community, then we have an opportunity for sport to play a meaningful role in people's lives, and it becomes less fringe in extreme, but it doesn't lose any of its edge. I mean, you can buy a skateboard at any shopping mall, but make no mistake, skateboarding is as gnarly as it ever has been.

Cole Heilborn (33:06):

If you could, I dunno, distill some takeaways from this, if you had to leave folks with some big ideas, I mean, I don't know, certainly you've certainly got me thinking through this whole conversation. I guess, what would you want to leave folks with and then a double dip on the question. What questions are you still asking yourself that if you could find an answer to you would be excited about a two-parter there for you?

Drew Pautler (33:35):

I think from our perspective, the notion of cultural participation is mandatory. If you don't participate in culture, you run the risk of your brand being invisible or boring or both. And of course we can easily see how that doesn't work. And so shedding the fear of playing in mainstream spaces is what it's going to take for us to break through this echo chamber, break through this insular, albeit vibrant community, but one that is more attractive for more participation. And when I say participation, I'm not just talking about people doing it, I'm talking about people watching it and becoming fans and growing their passion for the sport, whether or not they do it themselves, that's ultimately where we'll see the greatest gains.

Cole Heilborn (34:37):

What are you still pondering?

Drew Pautler (34:39):

Gosh, I'm pondering how we can break this glass ceiling that exists around participation in mainstream culture for the outdoor industry and sport. There's quite a cost of entry. Media in that space is expensive. But again, it's one of those things that if you put the right talk worthy messages out into the world, then you can get the right echo back and one beyond the folks that you're already preaching to, so to speak.

Cole Heilborn (35:27):

Fascinating. Drew, I want to thank you for the conversation. Yeah. I'm sure folks have additional thoughts about any of this. I know I certainly do. If people want to find you, if they want to pick your brain, if they want to ask more questions, if they want to propose some ideas, where do you suggest folks find you?

Drew Pautler (35:47):

Sure. No, I'd love to hear from folks. I think it would be appropriate to reach out on our Instagram at Good Fortune Collective. Of course, you can check out our website, but if you want to have a direct conversation, whatsapp@goodfortunecollective.com is an email that exists. It gets checked and it gets responded to. But if you're in Vancouver, Canada, yes, swing by the office. And if we're not here, we're probably riding on the North Shore. But yeah, we've got a doorbell and when it gets rung, we open the door.

Cole Heilborn (36:23):

Yeah, look

Drew Pautler (36:23):

At that. That's

Cole Heilborn (36:24):

A good old fashioned service.

Drew Pautler (36:26):

Personal limitation for sure. No, I think human to human connection is something that will never go out of style.

Cole Heilborn (36:32):

Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. Well, drew, thank you again. I appreciate the conversation. Thanks for the thoughts. We should check in a year or two or five from now and see how the industry is progressing. Are we becoming more mainstream or are we just hunkering down even more? Time will tell.

Drew Pautler (36:49):

I love that thought. Thanks so much, Cole.

Cole Heilborn (36:50):

Alright, bye. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Backcountry Marketing Podcast. Please share it with a friend or leave us a review on Apple.

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