There’s a forest fire blazing through our industry right now. While destructive, forest fires bring new growth and a healthy environment. In this episode, Josh Weichhand, Vice President of Global Brand Marketing at Rumpl, talks about this inflection point and the changes happening in the outdoor industry.
Takeaways
Show Transcript
Cole
Today I'm sitting down with Josh Weichhand. He is the Vice President of Global Brand Marketing over at Rumpl. Before this though, Josh, you were at YETI. Before that, you were at Madcap. You're doing some consulting in there. And then if you go back far enough, you were at Chaco way back in the day and you were actually, you're on the show on episode 12. So this is a full circle moment for us.
Josh
Yeah, about four years later, I think, full circle, starting with the pandemic and now coming back to talk about the results.
Cole
Well, it's great to see you. You've certainly been around the block and had some neat experiences since we last had you on the show. Funny, I think back to episode 12 and I don't know that anyone could pay me enough money to go back and listen to that conversation, not because of you, because I feel like I don't know if I'd want to listen to myself. I feel like it took me a good 50 episodes to figure out a good workflow and a good process and figure out how do I want to be a host? So thank you for bearing with me through those initial episodes.
Josh
No, I appreciate it, man. It's a testament to the staying power. I mean, here we are, 160 episodes later, still doing the same thing. Super cool.
Cole (02:12.75)
Still doing the same thing, still having fun, insightful conversations. And speaking of which, we've got a fun one for today. We're going to be talking about inflection points. I don't think it's any secret that our industry is going through change in multiple ways. And Josh, you've got some ideas about inflection points and the changes and things are up in the air at this point. And as you described our industry, like there's kind of a wildfire burning through the industry and it brings a lot of questions about how do we adapt? How do we move forwards? What does this mean for brands today? And so with change comes a lot of questions. And so you've got a bit of the forefront of some of this stuff, it sounds like. And I'm excited to kind of dig in and pick your brain on inflection points in this wildfire metaphor blazing through our industry. Great. Well, thanks. Yeah. Yeah, let's jump right in. I'm curious, why is this something you think about? Let's start there. Can you give us an opening statement about this metaphor that you've been using?
Josh
Yeah, so I suppose the thesis is inflection points are like forest fires. And by that, I mean they are inherently disruptive and disruptive, but ultimately healthy for the ecosystem. You know, forest fires clear the landscape. They make way for new growth. I think that, you know, in 2024, we're facing kind of the you know, the downside of what was a pandemic bump. And, you know, I'm old enough and I've been doing this long enough that I've seen a couple boom and bust cycles for outdoor just in the last, you know, 15, 20 years. And for somebody who really wanted to make this my life's work and make this a career, you know, I think it really has professionals of a certain age really starting to think about the structural issues and maybe some of the macro conditions that make this sort of thing possible. You know, the last time you and I connected four years ago, the pandemic was just beginning. Chaco had actually converted its factory to make PPE, you know, face masks and protective coverings. And I mean, that's how that's how dire the circumstances were. I mean, we weren't really selling product. Almost all of our dealers had closed their doors. You know, thankfully we had a relatively robust e-commerce operation, but it was very scary and unusual. And I think that the sky was falling until we realized, oh, when there's nothing else to do, people are going outside. And, you know, so began a pretty incredible period of growth, I think, during the pandemic. And I think that the outdoor industry, you know, coupled, coupling that pandemic, consumer behavior and the shift in interest and you know, maybe it was just the obligation of like I have nothing better to do and nowhere else to spend my money plus stimulus. But also, you know, the industry itself had done great work really advocating for outdoor access, getting more people outside. And I think that the culmination of our collective success in winning over the hearts and minds of consumers and also a once in a lifetime event that drove more casual users outside than ever. It led to this situation where I think a lot of brands became a little bit high on their own supply and they started to believe in their success as being this inevitable conclusion. And what you ended up seeing is, you know, over the course of the later pandemic, a lot of brands really starting to creep their scope and really reach into new categories where frankly it wasn't their core focus.
It wasn't their core relevance and it was an attempt to grab more consumer market share and mind share. And I think what you're seeing now is, OK, you know, in 2023, we pumped so much inventory into the marketplace. And I'll say that, you know, speaking on behalf of Rumpl as well, I think we're in a similar situation. Like we put a lot of product out into the marketplace and frankly, consumers just aren't metabolizing it at the at the rate that they were during the pandemic and I think that, you know, inevitably it leads to skew rationalization and cost cutting and all the measures that require brands to get serious about like what is our actual focus and what do we want this next stage to look like. And so I think you're going to start to see brands really consolidate down their line plan. I think you're going to see people pivot back to a focus on a core consumer and maybe a core use case.
(06:47.406)
Brands that were maybe trying to reach into new categories or expand their aperture to reach consumers that maybe their core product wasn't necessarily designed to reach. I think you're going to see some corrective action on that front. Ultimately, it's just a really interesting time. One of the reasons I want to have this conversation is because I think that there are some really interesting learnings for Rumpll that can be extrapolated and applied to the entire industry. I would love to see us come out of this period.
You know with with a little bit of a mindset of like not necessarily how can you avoid the forest fire? But how can you adapt to it so that you aren't necessarily you know all consumed? By by these macro conditions and these circumstances. I think there's a lot of things that you know in hindsight were avoidable and That's the stuff. I'm really interested in talking about.
Cole
So by the time folks this episode is out There's an episode out that I did with Matt Powell. He's an analyst and a researcher and he's been he's been studying the industry for the last 50 years and he and I had a really interesting conversation about this idea, but looking at it from the numbers perspective. And he was saying that, you know, the revenue and the growth of the industry has had over the last couple of years. If we took out the pandemic bump, like we would still be on track for growth, but because we've had this bump in revenue as industry as a whole, because of the pandemic, that's why we're in this decline. It was a short bump and now we're kind of backsliding. But the industry as a whole is still on track for its regular growth percentage. I think he said that was four or five percent, which honestly isn't something that I had heard before. I'd always just assumed like, you know, the sky was falling, but there was no explanation as to why. But he was saying it's really just because we've had this massive increase and now things are adjusting, things are resetting. But that doesn't discount the real world impact that that has is you look around the landscape and you see companies with layoffs, you see people losing their jobs, you see brands questioning, like, what do we look like moving forwards? So it's an interesting time. And I'm curious, are you optimistic? Where does your optimism fall for the industry as a whole as you kind of evaluate where we're at today? I'm inherently an optimistic person.
Josh (09:10.542)
You know, one of the reasons why I'm in this industry is because, you know, I just feel like being connected to the outdoors just makes people come alive and it makes people a better version of themselves and maybe also contextualizes our relevance and our importance in the grand scheme of nature, you know, and I love that. So optimistically, I would say, like, I still absolutely believe in the role of this industry, but I also think we have to be like super clear-eyed around the challenges, you know.
And I think that there's both these near-term challenges and then these longer-term challenges, right? And like, the near-term, I think, is stuff everybody's talking about. And it's being discussed ad nauseum, I think, in the industry publications and on LinkedIn and where people from the outdoor space come and have these conversations. But we put way too much inventory into the marketplace, right? You know, to use an example from my time in coffee, one of the things that was really interesting to me about getting into specialty coffee, you know, coming out of the outdoor industry was because the pandemic was in full force, there was this new mode of consumption and purchase, which was subscription or grocery delivery, you know, and there was this question of like, will this become a sticky behavior? You know, will consumers just be like, you know what, I just want my coffee delivered. you know, or I want my groceries delivered every day and I don't even want to have to think about it. And I think that there was a convenience aspect to it that, you know, kicked in in the early days of the pandemic. But quickly what you realized is, you know, people are social beings and they crave the ability to get out and discover and experience new things. And so anything that was going to make their life feel like Groundhog's Day, you know, like it was just being repeated, you know, quickly became old and tired.
In the moment, people had an opportunity to break out and get back to normal. I think that they rushed towards those opportunities. And so to get back to the outdoor space, I think what you're seeing is some pretty dramatic shifts in consumer priority and consumer spending patterns. And I would say the things that make me really optimistic about Rumble.
Josh (11:27.118)
Aside from the incredible brand and the incredible foundation that we have and the strong leadership and all the great things that make this team wonderful, I think is that we are maybe better positioned than a lot of other outdoor brands or certain categories to be able to pivot into the short -term opportunities. And by that, I mean, if you think about the brands that are really going to succeed in this moment, 2024 is going to be a massive travel year you know consumers are going to be spending more on travel and travel experiences than they have, you know, since the previous high of 2019 before the pandemic. And I think that you couple that with what's happening in the housing sector, you know, Gen Z, millennial consumers, maybe reconciling the fact that they're not interested in owning a home. So why save for it? I would rather invest in experiences.
So I think that that's a giant opportunity. And then also the boomer generation beginning to retire or to sell off their home that is increased massively in value. That's an opportunity for them to buy the RV or the recreational overlanding vehicle or the custom van to get out on the road. And so a brand like Rumpel, I think, is well positioned to address that particular use case. But then if you think about outdoor brands just how they address the elements. You know, a lot of people are still spending a lot of time outdoors. And I think you would see this quantified in the Outdoor Industry Association's reports on the size of the economy. But the things that are going to be included in it, like the growth categories, aren't necessarily going to be adventure travel, and it's not necessarily going to be mountaineering or alpining or even backcountry skiing. I think it's going to be things like, you know, I spend weekends going to sporting events with my kids, you know, and… travel sports are back and I'm gonna spend all afternoon at a track meet and I need XYZ product to make that experience more comfortable because of the weather, because of the exposure to the cold or the elements, et cetera, et cetera. And so I think that there's sort of this interim period where while we're in a bit of a liminal space as an industry, there are certain brands I think who can sort of index into those sorts of opportunities. that are going to succeed really well. 2024 is also an election year, and so consumer sentiment is always going to go down on an election year, maybe especially an election year like this one. But the bright side to that is, again, when consumers are world-weary because of climate change and increased natural disasters and the destructive forces of weather becoming worse and worse.
And then the general uncertainty of the political situation, I think you're gonna see certain outdoor categories over indexing growth because of people's inclination to prepare for the worst or emergencies and those sort of things. So I look at that stuff broadly and say it's like reason to be optimistic as a business owner, as a leader of a brand, as folks who develop products for that sort of use case.
I think longer term though, the things that you have to be worried about are, you know, now that we've kind of democratized the outdoors, we've introduced all these new consumers and casual participants into it. And the best of our outdoor brands have been collaborating with the fashion brands and lifestyle brands. There's no real reason for people to have to come to these core outdoor brands anymore, you know, to be able to have their needs fulfilled. I mean, you'll see things like this quiet outdoors trend which is sort of the spiritual successor to the GORP Core trend, that I think kind of put a lot of outdoor brands on the map in sort of a lifestyle retail setting. Those brands can get the same technical fabrics and the same technical installations, and maybe they don't have the same credibility in that space. Maybe they're not as invested in the endemic use case or the end consumer. But they have the same ability to compete for factory space and the same ability to compete for mindshare in a very busy ecosystem. And so I think that that inevitably is going to force the industry to really have a bit of a moment where they have to refocus on like, what is it that we're going to stand for and what are we going to believe going forward?
(16:04.398)
There's this fellow, Wes Allen. He used to be the president of Grassroots Outdoor Alliance, and he's just kind of a blue flame thinker who sort of represents the outdoor specialty dealer in that mindset, I think, out in the ecosystem. And he had this really interesting quote from an article that he wrote recently. Authenticity is gathered in drops and lost in buckets, you know, which is really interesting because, like, if you look at the brands that are succeeding right now, I don't know that authenticity is necessarily top of mind. You look at the Stanleys of the world and their incredible growth and their ability to over-index into the popular culture. No idea how long that lasts. Then in the meantime, two years from now, once we've gotten over this hump of our inventory positions,
And we're back on that sort of natural progression of where the industry was going to be growing anyways. I'm very curious to see what the industry is going to look like and who's still going to be around and who's going to be relevant and who are the new players, if any, who are going to even be able to break into that space. So you mentioned that because of the lifestyle shift that the industry has taken into the democratization of the product and finding other folks who...
who want a North Face or a Patagonia, for example, you see that fashion brands are going to be competing with endemic outdoor brands, and you see that as a threat to part of the future of the industry. I just want to back up to that point, because that was an interesting comment. Yeah, sure. I think that we have actively introduced the Balenciagas and the coaches and the Gucci's into our world.
you know, in the spirit of getting earned media and kind of tapping into maybe the intersection of outdoor and street-wear. And that stuff is super cool until all of a sudden you're like, man, there's suddenly a giant influx of technical outdoor apparel and outdoor gear happening in fast fashion, which is the inevitable conclusion, right? You know, it starts with.
(18:20.174)
the premium brands, but five years from now it's gonna be the Zaras and it's gonna be the Sheeans and all these other folks that are gonna come in and be able to undercut everyone else on price and quality and maybe they don't have the same respect for the IP that's been developed around this sort of stuff. And so I do think about that a lot. It's sort of like, we've sort of been paving our own road, right?
And I'll raise my hand on this too. When I was at Chaco, we did some really interesting collaborations with streetwear brands. And they're great and they get you a ton of press and there's like a whole media ecosystem to promote it. But at some point, you'll have a bunch of new folks crowding your category because they see the opportunity. And so ultimately, I think this is where the pressure gets put on not just the brands, but especially the wholesale retail base. I look at the players in specialty and then also bigger players like REI. I think it's going to be a challenging environment to be able to continue servicing the modern consumer and decide where do you want to focus? Do you want people to come to you because you represent the aspiration and the difficult to achieve challenge of being outdoors and how you seek to participate in the outdoors or is it simply a vibe?
Cole
This is a theory that I have and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on it. I wrote this article and I called it, is your jacket really unique?
Josh
This is good, yeah.
Cole
Did you take a look at it? Yeah. Okay, well so my theory is our industry, like we're, we're really good at making products. Like we make exceptional products because we all care about it. We all want, you know, we build product because we want it to perform personally for us on the mountain or wherever we're using it. And so that drives us to innovate. That drives us to push the boundaries of what's possible technically. And you look around at, at all of these companies that have made amazing product, like it's all really good. And I can't tell the difference between technically speaking, like between one brand versus the other brand on a pure technical basis.
(20:40.75)
And now as you're mentioning, like, From a technical perspective, there could be streetwear brands entering the space as well. Like there's nothing, there's nothing that's left to compete on. Um, if, if the technical details of your product or what you hang your hat on. And for me, then the question is, well, what makes you different? How do you stand out? And it comes in my mind, it comes back to brand, but I'm curious to hear your take on this. Like, is this, is this a real threat with this influx of streetwear that we could foresee into the industry?
Josh
Yeah, you know, and I would say it's more than just streetwear, right? I think it's just in general, it's fast fashion and the accessibility of trends becoming normalized into, you know, the everyday items that are available to us. I think that, you know, to borrow again from my experience in coffee, coffee was like highly relevant, like really good life lessons learned in my coffee world. But like Specialty coffee is this unique proposition right because like there's Folgers which you can buy in any grocery store But then there's like the specialty coffee shop that will do the pour-over for you and it's like an anaerobic process and You know a natural process that you know The the fruit is literally melting off of the the bean and then it gets roasted and like there's all these things that can can really sell you as a consumer on the idea of like why specialty coffee is better than the basic stuff you can buy in the grocery store. In the same way that there's a difference between natural wine and three buck chuck at Trader Joe's, or the differences between a red and a white wine, or the differences between different types of beer. And I think the challenge is, when you finally double click, you introduce that consumer to that experience and they're like, wow, this is amazing. I had no idea that this was possible. I had no idea that I could get this particular type of technical apparel applied to my product and it's so useful in my everyday life, etc. etc. Or, I didn't know that coffee could taste like this. And then you actually do the doubl -click and it's like, oh, well, this industry is actually pretty small and there's a lot of shared talent and a lot of shared resources, a lot of shared factory base, a lot of shared sourcing. And the reality is, again, the coffee metaphor, it's like we're all buying from the same farms. And we're all buying from the same producers.
(23:02.286)
And ultimately, the thing that's really differentiated is how you make your product and the label that you put on it. And like label being maybe your brand and like all the values of your company and how you choose to operate your business. You know, but like I would say that, you know, to be super reductive, I think the same thing is kind of true in the outdoor space right now. You know, ultimately, like, you know, if you go on Amazon, you can find a dupe of almost any type of technical garment or any type of outdoor whether it's, you know, like what's the difference between Jackson kayaks or, you know, the sort of thing that you can just find like a rotomolded, you know, kayak on Amazon. I mean, it's very difficult to compete purely on the product or on price. And so ultimately I think that, you know, brand becomes that much more important and not just brand, but maybe like your values and your way of doing business, you know. And Patagonia is an easy example just because, you know, they're the most radical example.
You know, for Rumpl, like we have committed to being a 1 % for the planet brand. We've committed to being a B Corp. We've committed to being climate neutral. When we introduced our product, it was white space. It was a new category. Frankly, it was shocking that no one had made it already. But the moment we introduced it, it was a really easy sell-in to consumers and to retailers because it was like, hey, this is incremental dollars. You didn't have this category, now you do. But fast forward a couple years and now we have NPD data that can quantify the size of the prize and any other brands or any other operator can kind of look at it and say, OK, well, maybe we want a piece of that. Doesn't seem very hard. It's not that hard, right? But I think for us, that's what has driven decisions like, OK, we're going to make sure that our product is made with 100 % post-consumer recycled plastic bottles you know, versus just the virgin, you know, materials and factor, you know, the factories have available to them at any given moment. You know, and so like, ultimately, that's the job of, you know, brand and marketing is to kind of like tell that story, make sure we're getting credit for those sort of things. I think what you're going to see in the short term from an outdoor industry standpoint is retailers are really going to cull down the line of products that they actually carry. Everyone from REI down to the independent mom and pops, just a couple doors in like Grassroots Outdoor Alliance. And I think that outdoor specialty will really reassert itself as curators of the best, not the most product. And so I think there will be a few winners in each category.
You know, for Rumpl, like for us, it's performance, technical blankets and insulation. This unique product category that we really pioneered and that we've developed and that we're always going to be the market leader because we just had the competitive advantage on it. But I think you're going to see similar things across the board. It's like, do I need to have 20 apparel brands or do I need to focus on eight? You know, like how many brands really need to be competing in a given category?
And so I think it's going to be interesting in the short term. I think it will be really hard for new brands to break in. At the same time, you know, for us, it's I have optimism that you're going to see a lot of the bigger players who decided to enter our category probably pull out again, because frankly, it's not really worth their time or energy. You know, in an age of skew rationalization, everybody's going to refocus on their core consumer and the thing that they do really well.
Cole
So with this wildfire that's blazing. How do you feel like it'll affect the relationship between challenger brands and established brands? Will it thin out the challengers? Will it cripple the established brands to some degree and make room for challenger brands to take their place? How do you see that playing out?
Josh (27:37.934)
Yeah, I mean, I do think, I think it's gonna be a little bit of both. Challenger brands, especially in the first few years of their existence, they're very tenuous.I mean the fact that so rumple is celebrating our 10 year anniversary this year and really that's an incredible milestone I mean the fact that we've been that successful that we're around that we've had an incredible period of growth over the last you know, four or five years That's you know, that's something we're celebrating I do think that for a lot of smaller brands, you know And I would say like we've probably you know, we've leveled up at this point You know, we're we're part of that last graduating class of like a lot of new innovative challenger brands, the Topo Designs, the Howler Brothers, you know, BioLite, Peak Design, like a lot of these folks that kind of showed up, you know, for the first time or launched on Kickstarter like we did. But newer brands, I think, you know, cash on hand, your ability to access a supply chain, like these are all really challenging things, you know, to operate even in normal circumstances, let alone when retailers aren't taking chances on new brands or unproven.
propositions, right? And so, and then I think, you know, with regards to bigger established companies, I think we're in this interesting age of consolidation right now. Rumpl's kind of unique in that we haven't participated in that. We're still independent. We're still privately held. And there's some really awesome advantages to that. But, you know, like Vista Outdoors, you know, like it's being it's being kind of sectioned off and it'll be sold and it'll be under new ownership. And like, who knows what happens then, right? International ownership. I think that some really big players are gonna need to make the decision of like, are they gonna become a true portfolio company or are they going to be some sort of hybrid? Like Yeti just acquired Mystery Ranch. And that's a really interesting acquisition if you decide to be a portfolio company. If not, it's just kind of like, it's YETI and Mystery Ranch you know, and VF Corp, I think, is going through its own situation right now where, you know, I would imagine that they are starting to look strategically at their portfolio. And they've signaled this, you know, in their earnings calls and everything else. But I think you're going to start to see some significant divestments in a lot of the big anchor global companies and portfolios that really dominated the landscape over the last, call it like five, ten years. I think you're going to see some pretty significant shakeups.
And so it's really interesting. I think like three years from now, the dominating players on the landscape might look a little different, you know, or at least like down at the category level. I think you'll start to see a lot of shake-up. Do you feel like this will expedite the shake-up or will it delay things? I think the wheels are in motion for a lot of this stuff right now. I think and it's also the combination of and this is the other thing that I think was kind of driving this whole situation is, you know, the stock market.
(30:03.214)
Right. Like during the during the pandemic, there wasn't much else to do but play the stock market, you know. And so a lot of brands that were benefiting from that current behavior, their stocks skyrocketed. And now, you know, you're seeing even brands that are really strong on the fundamentals, you know, companies that have a lot of cash on hand that are doing buybacks and everything else. Like they just can't they can't break out of that the current cycle and get back to their previous pandemic high.
And I think because of that, like you're starting to see a lot of activist investors get involved. You're starting to see more scrutiny on a lot of the acquisitions and growth plans that were put in place maybe like three years ago or over the last couple of years. You know, like if you're VF and you're trying to justify a two billion dollar acquisition of Supreme, you know, like.
I mean, it's going to be an interesting time. So I think to answer your question, I think all the wheels are in motion. I think we're going to start to see the results of that in the next 18 months or sooner.
Cole
You mentioned something else in one of our intro calls that couldn't be controversial. You said, you asked a question, do brands need to continue to grow? Or can they remain relatively the same size? What's your take there? Do we need to be seeking growth constantly or what is what is slow and steady look like?
Josh
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one of the conclusions, I think, from the incredible job that the Outdoor Industry Association has done, like quantifying the size of the opportunity is that now that you've quantified it and you've expressed how large it is, now you feel like you have to make it bigger. And I think the question is just going to be like, OK, how much growth is actually possible?
(32:23.182)
And I'll go back to my time at Chaco. I think you know Chaco when I was there we had an incredible growth run and you know for for your listeners who aren't familiar like Chaco is a a sports sandal primarily, you know, that was our the core skew a sports sandal that was invented by whitewater rafting guides and it had a lot of utility and it was incredibly comfortable and it was adopted by some of these subcultures, you know that led to some incredible growth over the course of five of the years when I was there, we went from, I think we grew the business by 5X, to the point where there was a moment where Chaco was more than $100 million in US sales. And frankly, I think that was too big for Chaco. I don't think Choco deserved to be that big. And also it was because most of that size was concentrated in the one skew.
It wasn't a mix of categories and other products you know, pivoting to find other opportunities to service that consumer that has fallen in love with you. But the problem is, is, you know, looking at one hundred million dollars when you're in a publicly traded company, inevitably it's like, cool, you're one hundred million. You need to be three hundred million. Right. When instead of you're one hundred million. Wow, this is great. This probably won't last long. Like you're probably organically maybe like a sixty million dollar brand, you know, but like this is great while it lasts. You know, how are we going to invest these resources to set you up for the future?
You know, so I think that that's a little bit of it, you know, this There's there definitely it feels to me like there needs to be a bit of a mindset change, you know around like, you know Growth is healthy and I do think you know brands are like sharks. Like if they stop moving forward they die And there's no way around that I think in a capitalist system, but I think that having a healthy Outlook on what growth looks like and where it's gonna come from
and managing your inventory position and your selling strategy in a way that maybe leaves consumers wanting more versus leaving retailers holding the bag or having to stuff channels with closed-out products. I think that this is something that every single brand in our industry right now is facing and I think you're gonna start to see a lot more discipline in that respect. Well with.
I mean, growth for the sake of growth often leads to a lack of focus, a lack of clarity. And I think once you lose focus, things start to kind of fall apart to some degree. And I think like maybe we're seeing that as, as companies are reaching into skews and maybe historically they haven't offered product into.
Cole (34:47.277)
I'm curious, like what is, what is focus? Like what is the value of focus for a brand? What is the value of self-restraint and discipline that's channeled through focus? Like when you have this opportunity, it's hard to say let's pump the brakes. Let's not dive into this next opportunity. What does it take to think that way?
Josh
discipline and also just maybe a Maybe like a stronger understanding of like your success in the first place, you know, and I think the further out you get from Your early days the more challenging that is, you know rumple is ten years in right? So like this wasn't that long ago when we started, you know on Kickstarter and people were just like this is cool object how this not exists, you know and, you know, I think, you know, just being really transparent, I think we fell into this trap a little bit too where, you know, focus for us was, well, we're going to be the blanket brand. But because we're the blanket brand, we're going to make all sorts of iterations of blankets. And some of these are going to be really difficult to differentiate, you know, whether it's price point or feature set or, you know, the type of insulation that we're using or something else. And there comes a point where it's like, OK, like maybe you don't need to have this many even within your category that you're known for, right? And I mean, that's a very specific example for us. You know, we are in a moment right now where we're doing some really exciting work on our line plan and we're sort of recalibrating and figuring out exactly what is the appropriate mix and at what pricing tiers and at what feature sets to make this whole category and this whole business make sense, not just for the financials, but as a consumer proposition, you know, so it's like very clearly understood.
You know, I think my time at Yeti was really formative for me because I think that that was a that is a brand that from the very beginning understood their core consumer and they were building products for that core consumer. You know, starting with, you know, and Yeti, people forget because Yeti is so big now, but like the first 10 years of Yeti's existence was a white, rotomolded cooler. They didn't even have other colors, let alone, you know, drinkware and luggage and go boxes and all the other add-ons.
(36:48.366)
But I think that the natural progression of their category development, their product development, flowed out of observing and listening and paying attention and servicing that core consumer. So like, I'll use this as an example, but like a Tundra cooler, it's not just a cooler, right? It's the middle seat of a raft going through the Grand Canyon. It's a cutting board you know, for people who are doing saltwater fly fishing, you know, making ceviche on the beach or whatever. You know, it's a stand for people who are, you know, casting, you know, on a skiff. It's a bear-proof safe, you know. And so, like, all of these things, you start to make observations where it's like, OK, how are consumers using this? Well, a lot of our hunting guides and our fishing guides, they store their extra layers and their clothing in the cooler because it's an easy, you know, storage component and they sit on it, you know, and it's like, okay, cool. Well, I feel like we have an opportunity to make chairs, you know, I feel like we have an opportunity to make other, you know, safety closure systems for people to kind of stow their core gear, you know, and I think that that's a really important aspect of maybe what's been missing is allowing the consumer to lead you versus, hey, what just appears to be popular items in the marketplace that maybe we could have a unique point of view on.
And I think for Rumpll, for example, we just came out of a really robust consumer study where I think we understand our core consumer, the people who've really lived and breathed Rumpel and who are really excited about our brand and our product over the last several years. And we understand now more than ever what they want to see from us and also how they actually use their product in the day-to-day. And that is now being funneled.
through not just the brand strategy, but also the product development process to say, okay, what are the new opportunities that can be created here? And so that, I think, is maybe the way I would probably respond to your question. Discipline is hard. I look at Stanley, and I'm like, Stanley had every incentive to feed that beast and get as big as they have.
(39:02.99)
And I think, you know, comping those numbers is going to be really challenging for them. But also the reason that they're in that position is because frankly, they had a product that provided a really incredible solution for a core consumer who was really excited about it and talked about it a lot. But that core consumer was not hunters and fishers and construction workers like it was, you know, 50 years ago or even 10 years ago. You know, it was, you know, moms in Utah. who needed something that they could put in a cup holder and that they could drink with one hand and that they could carry with a bag over their shoulder and three kids under an arm. And that I think is more important is like really paying attention to how do people use your products? What problems are you solving for them? And what should naturally flow out of that versus, hey, I just think that we have an opportunity to make a play for this white space over here, this market over here.
Cole
There's a quote by Bill Gates that I think about often and when asked, what is a skill that you wish you had more of? His answer was, I wish I had more focus. I wish I had the ability to focus. And that's always stuck with me because if one of the arguably one of the most, you know, the smartest people, the wealthiest people in the world, like understands the value of focus and how distracting a lack of focus can be, like, I mean, that seems like it's everything. And I think looking at focus and what that means from like my seat in the industry where like brands will come to us and we'll help them make commercials or docs or something. And oftentimes there's a lack of focus in terms of who the audience is or what the message is or what the call to action is. And like, we always pump the brakes before we actually start making the thing, because we're like, we need to know these answers before we, because like in order to make the thing successful, we have to know what our focus is. And I, I just wonder like focus seems so simple. Obviously, it's way more complicated in actuality. Like, why do we lack focus inherently? Is it because we don't, as an industry, we don't have internal processes to determine focus? Do we just, you know, do we just chase the next shiniest thing? I guess this is a really ambiguous question, but like, why do we lack focus? I can't tell you where I heard this, but it's always stuck with me.
Josh (41:19.63)
Someone once told me that the word priorities never existed until recently. It was priority. What is the priority? As in, like, there's one thing that you're focusing on versus, like, we have all these priorities. And I've been having conversations with my direct reports this week, actually, just about we have a lot on our plate because, you know, Rumpl's going through a significant period of transformation. There's really exciting things that we're doing. We're updating our brand platform, you know, our color palette or look and feel, we're rolling out new products, we're preparing for the future, and it requires a lot of work. And so the comments I've made to my team is, listen, nobody's gonna accuse you of not doing enough work or no one's gonna look at the pile of work that you have in front of you and say like, wow, that's not a very big pile. That's not the problem. I think the question is, what are the things in that pile that are actually going to move the needle for the business and better position you for the moment?
How can you hold those things out and say, like, this is the thing that is most important right now, or we're facing this particular critical issue as an organization, as an industry, whatever. How can we use the things that are already on our list of to-dos to take bites out of that bigger problem in the process? And so it is always humbling to hear that the wealthiest, most important people in the world or in the economy have the ability to even reflect and say, like, I need to have focus. Like, I marvel at it because I'm by no means important in the grand scheme of things, but I'm like, man, I wish I was in fewer meetings. I wish I had more time to actually like focus and really think about things and really untie the knots of these problems. And it's just a, I think it's just a daily challenge, you know.
But ultimately, I think the best advice anybody can have is just, you can only really care about maybe two or three things really at a given time. Yeah, there's all sorts of other things that are gonna crowd your space and crowd your mind, but I think true focus is you're only gonna be able to tackle two or three problems meaningfully. And so how you decide what...
(43:39.982)
those problems are that are worthy of your attention and worthy of the energy and bandwidth of your organization? I think that's the question that needs to be answered. So earlier you mentioned that there's kind of two challenges the industry faces near term, long term. Near term is kind of the inventory challenge. Long term though is where you see the future of the industry going, the confluence between streetwear and fast fashion and the outdoor industry. I'm curious if focus is part of the secret ingredient to help brands.
make it through this wildfire, both in the near-term challenges and the long-term challenges. Is that a reach or you feel like there's some truth to that? I think that's true. And I'm going to respond maybe to one specific situation in a way that might feel like I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth, but I actually don't see any conflict with it. And it's this, that, and I'll use the Rumpl example. Like we...
I think we can be laser focused on our core consumer in building the right products for their use cases and their endemic pursuits and the environments that we know that they use them in and respond to the areas that they would like to see us grow. I think we can do that and at the same time there is a rumble solution for consumers who are not necessarily that core consumer.
And I think that in the short term that is probably the connecting of dots that needs to happen You know from a from a brand strategy and a sales strategy standpoint You know for us I'll borrow from from Yeti for an example But like you know the the roadie cooler is like a it's like a hard cooler with a handle and wheels really cool product and
The way that Yeti brings that sort of thing to market is somebody dragging this thing through the woods for miles over roots and rocks and then they get to the incredible hidden beach and like awesome. You brought your meal, you brought your beverages, you brought the reward for this incredible pursuit and like isn't that cool? But the reality is like 95 % of consumers are gonna use that. They're gonna roll out of their minivan, they're gonna roll it to the sidelines at a soccer game and they're gonna serve orange slices out of it.
(45:53.966)
And so in that, I think is a little bit of the, you know, who are you making it for versus who wants to buy it? That is a slightly different way to articulate, I think, you know, the strategy for how you address this situation we're in. I think Rumpl has a giant opportunity to, you know, provide outdoor and element proof comforts for people who are enduring, you know, weather and cold and uncomfortable experiences in bleachers and on sidelines and on road trips and on airplanes and all these other things. And those are really natural extensions and adjacencies of the product that we make. But we're making the product for one particular use case. And it just happens to be good for these other things. And I think that's the important thing to keep in mind. There's a lot here.
Cole
There's a lot of interesting things to dig deeper on and threads to pull. This wildfire is going. Uh, where do you, so, I mean, at the end of it all, like, where do you feel like it puts us? Like, are you expecting to see brands fall out of the wayside companies to disappear and those that can, that can make it through? Like do they come out on top and they come out stronger than ever?
You mentioned the very beginning of this conversation that you guys are at Rumpel are trying to figure out like, we can't obviously prevent the wildfire, but how do we build a company that can adapt not only to this one, but future ones? Like Where does this look like? Where does this put us on the other side?
Josh
Yeah, I mean, for Rumpl in particular, I think you're going to see us be just hyper -disciplined around how much product we're putting out into the market and how we forecast. And I mentioned it earlier, I think that there's something good about leaving consumers wanting more. Like what an incredible problem to have. Like, wow, you bought us out. Cool. Like, stay tuned for the next, right?
And so like I would like to, I think everybody would like to see their demand planners and their sales function air more to that side than to the side of like we're gonna bet on giant growth and have no plan for achieving it, right? I think the other portion of what you're talking about is sort of like what are the predictions for the next 18 months? And I think my predictions are probably,
(48:14.606)
You're going to see a lot of the marquee players in our industry express publicly that they are going to refocus on their core consumer and their core assortment. So you're already starting to see this. There was a there was a news report out from the recent earnings call for Black Diamond where they're basically saying like we're going to shrink and we're going to be a climbing brand. We're going to focus on being an incredible climbing brand. You know, and like they're part of a portfolio with Arcterix and some other brands and everything else. But I think.
You know, a portfolio mentality where they're not cannibalizing each other's opportunities, I think is really important. You're going to start to see, I think, some strategic assessments and divestments in portfolio companies, figure out exactly like, OK, what is the right mix to have? You know, Wolverine Worldwide has, you know, Merell, got Saucony, they got Chaco. You know, they have a few other brands, but like In a previous iteration of events, I think you would have seen them all making competing product and trying to sell into similar distribution. I think you're going to start to see more strategy where brands are allowed to cater to the thing that they do best. I think that right, wrong, good or bad, there's going to be less category representation out in wholesale, at least in the short term. People aren't going to take bets on things that are unproven.
(50:33.966)
Or at least like it's going to have to be a really compelling proposition for them to to make those decisions. And so you'll see the outdoor retailer really refocus their assortment. And then also, you know, sporting goods is going to get out outdoors, I think, like post pandemic. Like you're always starting to see this. Like I think Dick’s is signaling this stick sporting goods. They've got their public lands concept. They made the acquisition of Moose Jaw. They're making some moves there. I think you're going to start to see concepts you know, again, in the spirit of focus, they're gonna focus on the thing that they cater to really well. And then other channels are gonna focus on what they do really well, you know? And so I would anticipate that, you know, 12 months from now, 18 months from now, I actually think Outdoor Specialty will be better off than they've been in a while, just because I think that their role, you know, on the local level and also being able to curate the best collection of gear to service a variety of pursuits versus like, hey, here's four or five different brands all kind of competing on similar terms and similar price or whatever. And having to be educated about those minute differences, I think that's a losing proposition. So I think you're going to see a lot of things clean up on that side as well.
Cole
Yeah, interesting. Well, as you said, a forest fire is destructive, but it's good for the environment. It cleans up debris. It cleans up some of Not to say that brands are a mess, but it tidies things up and ultimately it allows for new growth and new opportunity. So while it feels like things are hot and heavy and destructive and maybe falling apart, it sounds like there's a lot of reasons to be hopeful. And as you are being optimistic about some of this stuff, it's really just a matter of trying to make it through and come out on the other side a little stronger. I appreciate you sharing and kind of breaking down some of this stuff. Is there anything that we haven't talked about that you want to leave our audience with before we sign off for the day?
Josh
I think just, you know, one of the reasons I met Rumpl is because of all the brands that sort of graduated into the industry, you know, a decade ago, 15 years ago. I think Rumpl is really interesting and I think we have a core product proposition that's inherently useful and utilitarian. And I'm really excited about the things that we're working on you know, so, you know, in the sense that you've given me a platform to kind of share my point of view on what's going on in the industry, I just want to, you know, give a shout out to this incredible brand that I have the privilege of stewarding and the exciting things that we're doing, you know, on the wholesale front and the investments that we're making, you know, in retail, you know, new brand platform and how we're rolling out kind of a new vision of who we are and what we can be. And that refocus on the core consumer because ultimately, you know,
I'm in this for the long haul. I think most of us are. That's why we're in this industry. And we want it to be healthy. And I think we all want to be in a situation where we're not surviving these events, but we're well prepared and adapted to endure and thrive.
Cole (52:47.086)
So well said if folks want to follow along with you or with any of the new changes to come on the rumple front Where can people find you? Yeah, so you can find Rumpl at rumpl.com at go rumple on social media give us a follow on Instagram. We're doing some fun things over there. You can find me on LinkedIn Josh Weichhand and difficult to spell and pronounce my last name, but give it a give it a college try and I'm sure you'll find me.
Well Josh thank you again. I hope I see you on the podcast sooner than four years from now, but I appreciate you sharing and it's been fun to see what you've been up to. And the amount of progress and change that I think seen in you personally from those Chaco days to now is, it's pretty cool. And speaking of trajectory and the future of where the industry is going, it's neat to see where you're fitting into that as well. So thanks for the time and I hope you have a great rest of your day.
Josh
Thanks Cole, appreciate it. All right, see ya.
